5 ms·

GM stopped putting carburetors in vehicles in 1985 for the US market, which is 30 years ago. When can we let go of old tech?

realusername 11y ago
There is other countries which are using cars other than the United States (shocking I know !) and I have a car which has one.
- marincounty 11y ago
  Good for you! I will never understand the mostly American tradition of buying a new car every few years? Cars that are so complicated; the owner is forced to bring it to the shop for every hiccup. A lot of cars/and trucks from the late 80's to around 2008, are pretty easy to work on, and with the proper maintence can last 300,000 miles. And if your not afraid of getting your hands dirty--you will never have to pay a mechanic $120/hr to work on your vechicle. These newer vehicles are so complicated--a lot of shops do a lot of learning on your dime. (I have a Toyota with a 22R engine. It has one 350,000 miles and it's never seen a mechanic--except for smog checks, and never failed once. Actually it did fail once, but it was due to an error in a Motor Emmission publication. If you have an older car, and need a Smog check; make sure your smog shop has access to Mitchell manuals online(OnDemand5). They are highly accurate! My dad gave me some good advice years ago. He told me to buy a year specific service manual for every automobile you ever buy.
  - bluetomcat 11y ago
    It's due to the perceived wisdom that every car suddenly becomes a lemon after hitting 100k miles. The "low social status" attributed to driving an older car is also at play. Here in Europe, it's not uncommon to see cars in good shape which have over 400k miles on the clock. If you think about it, a European or Japanese mid 90's car with no rust and a rebuilt engine will give you more trouble-free miles, for a fraction of the money.
  - rgbrenner 11y ago
    mostly American tradition of buying a new car every few years The average car on US roads is 11.4 years old: http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-ihs-automotive-average-age-car-20140609-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-ihs-automotiv... The average car on EU roads is 8.6 years old. In fact, in the EU only Estonia and Finland keep their cars longer than the US on average. http://www.acea.be/statistics/tag/category/average-vehicle-age http://www.acea.be/statistics/tag/category/average-vehicle-a...
    - spydum 11y ago
      would be interesting to see vehicle age by geography. I suspect all the rural farmers are the ones skewing the average (it's not unusual to have a 20-30yr old truck out on the farm.. You can fix them with the same tools as your tractors).
    - lenocinor 11y ago
      And 6.6 years in Japan, in 2011: http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2011/12/02/are-cars-losing-their-luster-in-japan/ http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2011/12/02/are-cars-losing... Americans do a lot of silly things but selling cars too quickly isn't one of them (relatively speaking, at least).
harperlee 11y ago
Even if all carburetors disappear from the face of the earth, it's still good to know they once existed, what purpose they served, and when and how they started being replaced. Extreme example: I once read a fascinating article about middle aged technology, where they commented on, among many things, how a high-quality cart wheel would have a hard, dense wood on the axis, another kind of wood in the spokes that was flexible, and a border made of a very stiff wood. I'm searching for it but I don't seem to be able to find it, alas.
Swizec 11y ago
The last carburetors in the US were in 1994 ISUZU trucks. [1] Some motorcycles still use them for simplicity and the last NASCAR season with carburetors was 2011. And anyway, why are we still teaching people how a CPU without branch prediction works? When will we let go of old technologies? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carburetor#History_and_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carburetor#History_and_develop...
- bnegreve 11y ago
  > And anyway, why are we still teaching people how a CPU without branch prediction works? When will we let go of old technologies? Fuel injection systems have replaced carburators. Branch predictors haven't replaced anything, if you want to compare them with any engine that would be turbo chargers (i.e. they're optional). I'm not sure comparing CPUs with engines makes a lot of sense though.
- jjohn2 11y ago
  You can find them in the inboard motors on many not-so-old boats. My 10 year old Mercruiser uses one (although I think the newer Mercruisers have all shifted to EFI). I found the site to be very instructive. I'm always interested in learning more about how the engine in my boat works in case there's anything I can repair at home instead of taking it to the shop. I think a lot of the information on the site is transferable seeing as how mine is essentially a GM produced 'car-engine' mounted in a hull (minus a transmission and some other things).
- fijal 11y ago
  Hi, I'm Maciek, I work on compilers. I would love to know how branch prediction in modern CPUs work, sadly they won't tell me (trade secrets). You should really improve your metaphors.
  - ectoplasm 11y ago
    Just search ACM for branch prediction papers at ASPLOS or similar conferences and look for corporate affiliation. IBM, Intel, and others routinely publish this stuff. It's usually patented first, so you can also check the USPTO.
thescrewdriver 11y ago
There are many readers of HN who aren't in the US and plenty of older cars around. In some countries carburetors were going into new cars after 2000.
gchokov 11y ago
GM is not the world. Just FYI
nicboobees 11y ago
People will always use "old tech". "Old tech" often just works. Flawlessly. I have a dumper truck I borrow from next door. Crank handle, diesel. It just works. Starts every time. No battery, no crap to go wrong. "new tech" is often designed to last 5 or 10 years maximum. After that is anyones guess as to whether it'll work.
- bloat 11y ago
  I was going to moan at you about how an old car would produce much more pollution than a newer car. But then I looked it up: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring/11187483/New-or-old-which-is-greener.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring/11187483/...
  - a3n 11y ago
    I bought a new Honda in 1990. I just now passed it on to my son, and bought a two year old Toyota. Think of all those cars that didn't get built because I drove the same car for 25 years. I thought about that often. The only time it didn't pass emissions test is the gas cap didn't seal properly. Bought a five dollar cap and was good to go. And it gets 35 mph in daily commuting.
  - michael_h 11y ago
    My first car was a 1974 VW Beetle (this was late 90's) - it got 65-70 MPG. I loved that thing. If you turned on the original heating system, you'd die of carbon monoxide poisoning, but I loved it.
- dalke 11y ago
  You've a bit of survivor bias. Old tech that is still running is likely to last a while more. But all of the old tech that was designed with planned obsolescence in mind doesn't work any more, so you don't think of it. That is, "old tech" was once "new tech." There's also the old tech that wasn't designed to last long, like adobe mud walls. Some old tech doesn't work flawlessly. Steam power vehicles, like locomotives, cars, and tractors, require more maintenance than their new tech replacements.
gregpilling 11y ago
For all those who have not liked my post: I rebuilt my first carb about 40 years ago, sitting on my fathers lap (age 5). He was a mechanic, I was a mechanic until I was 20. After that I spent the next 10 years selling tools and diagnostic equipment, as well as fixing a lot of cars - especially problem cars. I have worked on thousands of carburetors. I can re-jet the 2 carbs in my race bike in about 5 minutes (main jets only). Carburetors are indeed in use on millions of engines. I understand Bernoulli's principle, and I also understand that a carburetor is lousy at part throttle metering. What does that mean to you? Part throttle is anything that is not full throttle. Some people have a hard time believing that a fuel injected engine offers no full throttle advantage in total horsepower - it is the barely open part that matters. Fuel injection is massively more efficient and clean than carbs at part throttle. The part throttle issues cause all the emissions problems, cause all the pollution, cause all the smell when following behind a carb'd car. The electronic carbs of the 80's were a real nightmare. Take a mechanical device, put some dozen vacuum lines on it, each controlled by a solenoid, give it a dumb computer that you can't talk to, and no tech information anywhere. Not even at the dealer. Caveman tech, dressed up with bunch of patches and cruft. It was done to save a buck, not because the better way wasn't known. And the systems are horrible and should be sent to the crusher. It is fuel metering in the worst way; adding miles and wear just makes all the problems even worse, The EEC-IV systems used by Ford from 87-95 only had a 60 pin connector on them, the same number of pins that a Beagle Bone Black has. I have be thinking about how to use that as a basis to replace existing systems with an open source system that would be better and cheaper. But carburetors need to die. They are not great new, and get worse with age.

realusername 11y ago

There is other countries which are using cars other than the United States (shocking I know !) and I have a car which has one.

marincounty 11y ago
Good for you! I will never understand the mostly American tradition of buying a new car every few years? Cars that are so complicated; the owner is forced to bring it to the shop for every hiccup. A lot of cars/and trucks from the late 80's to around 2008, are pretty easy to work on, and with the proper maintence can last 300,000 miles. And if your not afraid of getting your hands dirty--you will never have to pay a mechanic $120/hr to work on your vechicle. These newer vehicles are so complicated--a lot of shops do a lot of learning on your dime. (I have a Toyota with a 22R engine. It has one 350,000 miles and it's never seen a mechanic--except for smog checks, and never failed once. Actually it did fail once, but it was due to an error in a Motor Emmission publication. If you have an older car, and need a Smog check; make sure your smog shop has access to Mitchell manuals online(OnDemand5). They are highly accurate! My dad gave me some good advice years ago. He told me to buy a year specific service manual for every automobile you ever buy.
- bluetomcat 11y ago
  It's due to the perceived wisdom that every car suddenly becomes a lemon after hitting 100k miles. The "low social status" attributed to driving an older car is also at play. Here in Europe, it's not uncommon to see cars in good shape which have over 400k miles on the clock. If you think about it, a European or Japanese mid 90's car with no rust and a rebuilt engine will give you more trouble-free miles, for a fraction of the money.
- rgbrenner 11y ago
  mostly American tradition of buying a new car every few years The average car on US roads is 11.4 years old: http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-ihs-automotive-average-age-car-20140609-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-ihs-automotiv... The average car on EU roads is 8.6 years old. In fact, in the EU only Estonia and Finland keep their cars longer than the US on average. http://www.acea.be/statistics/tag/category/average-vehicle-age http://www.acea.be/statistics/tag/category/average-vehicle-a...
  - spydum 11y ago
    would be interesting to see vehicle age by geography. I suspect all the rural farmers are the ones skewing the average (it's not unusual to have a 20-30yr old truck out on the farm.. You can fix them with the same tools as your tractors).
  - lenocinor 11y ago
    And 6.6 years in Japan, in 2011: http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2011/12/02/are-cars-losing-their-luster-in-japan/ http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2011/12/02/are-cars-losing... Americans do a lot of silly things but selling cars too quickly isn't one of them (relatively speaking, at least).

harperlee 11y ago

Even if all carburetors disappear from the face of the earth, it's still good to know they once existed, what purpose they served, and when and how they started being replaced. Extreme example: I once read a fascinating article about middle aged technology, where they commented on, among many things, how a high-quality cart wheel would have a hard, dense wood on the axis, another kind of wood in the spokes that was flexible, and a border made of a very stiff wood. I'm searching for it but I don't seem to be able to find it, alas.

Swizec 11y ago

The last carburetors in the US were in 1994 ISUZU trucks. [1] Some motorcycles still use them for simplicity and the last NASCAR season with carburetors was 2011. And anyway, why are we still teaching people how a CPU without branch prediction works? When will we let go of old technologies? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carburetor#History_and_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carburetor#History_and_develop...

bnegreve 11y ago
> And anyway, why are we still teaching people how a CPU without branch prediction works? When will we let go of old technologies? Fuel injection systems have replaced carburators. Branch predictors haven't replaced anything, if you want to compare them with any engine that would be turbo chargers (i.e. they're optional). I'm not sure comparing CPUs with engines makes a lot of sense though.
jjohn2 11y ago
You can find them in the inboard motors on many not-so-old boats. My 10 year old Mercruiser uses one (although I think the newer Mercruisers have all shifted to EFI). I found the site to be very instructive. I'm always interested in learning more about how the engine in my boat works in case there's anything I can repair at home instead of taking it to the shop. I think a lot of the information on the site is transferable seeing as how mine is essentially a GM produced 'car-engine' mounted in a hull (minus a transmission and some other things).
fijal 11y ago
Hi, I'm Maciek, I work on compilers. I would love to know how branch prediction in modern CPUs work, sadly they won't tell me (trade secrets). You should really improve your metaphors.
- ectoplasm 11y ago
  Just search ACM for branch prediction papers at ASPLOS or similar conferences and look for corporate affiliation. IBM, Intel, and others routinely publish this stuff. It's usually patented first, so you can also check the USPTO.

thescrewdriver 11y ago

There are many readers of HN who aren't in the US and plenty of older cars around. In some countries carburetors were going into new cars after 2000.

gchokov 11y ago

GM is not the world. Just FYI

nicboobees 11y ago

People will always use "old tech". "Old tech" often just works. Flawlessly. I have a dumper truck I borrow from next door. Crank handle, diesel. It just works. Starts every time. No battery, no crap to go wrong. "new tech" is often designed to last 5 or 10 years maximum. After that is anyones guess as to whether it'll work.

bloat 11y ago
I was going to moan at you about how an old car would produce much more pollution than a newer car. But then I looked it up: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring/11187483/New-or-old-which-is-greener.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring/11187483/...
- a3n 11y ago
  I bought a new Honda in 1990. I just now passed it on to my son, and bought a two year old Toyota. Think of all those cars that didn't get built because I drove the same car for 25 years. I thought about that often. The only time it didn't pass emissions test is the gas cap didn't seal properly. Bought a five dollar cap and was good to go. And it gets 35 mph in daily commuting.
- michael_h 11y ago
  My first car was a 1974 VW Beetle (this was late 90's) - it got 65-70 MPG. I loved that thing. If you turned on the original heating system, you'd die of carbon monoxide poisoning, but I loved it.
dalke 11y ago
You've a bit of survivor bias. Old tech that is still running is likely to last a while more. But all of the old tech that was designed with planned obsolescence in mind doesn't work any more, so you don't think of it. That is, "old tech" was once "new tech." There's also the old tech that wasn't designed to last long, like adobe mud walls. Some old tech doesn't work flawlessly. Steam power vehicles, like locomotives, cars, and tractors, require more maintenance than their new tech replacements.

gregpilling 11y ago

For all those who have not liked my post: I rebuilt my first carb about 40 years ago, sitting on my fathers lap (age 5). He was a mechanic, I was a mechanic until I was 20. After that I spent the next 10 years selling tools and diagnostic equipment, as well as fixing a lot of cars - especially problem cars. I have worked on thousands of carburetors. I can re-jet the 2 carbs in my race bike in about 5 minutes (main jets only). Carburetors are indeed in use on millions of engines. I understand Bernoulli's principle, and I also understand that a carburetor is lousy at part throttle metering. What does that mean to you? Part throttle is anything that is not full throttle. Some people have a hard time believing that a fuel injected engine offers no full throttle advantage in total horsepower - it is the barely open part that matters. Fuel injection is massively more efficient and clean than carbs at part throttle. The part throttle issues cause all the emissions problems, cause all the pollution, cause all the smell when following behind a carb'd car. The electronic carbs of the 80's were a real nightmare. Take a mechanical device, put some dozen vacuum lines on it, each controlled by a solenoid, give it a dumb computer that you can't talk to, and no tech information anywhere. Not even at the dealer. Caveman tech, dressed up with bunch of patches and cruft. It was done to save a buck, not because the better way wasn't known. And the systems are horrible and should be sent to the crusher. It is fuel metering in the worst way; adding miles and wear just makes all the problems even worse, The EEC-IV systems used by Ford from 87-95 only had a 60 pin connector on them, the same number of pins that a Beagle Bone Black has. I have be thinking about how to use that as a basis to replace existing systems with an open source system that would be better and cheaper. But carburetors need to die. They are not great new, and get worse with age.