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> Some octopuses did not like being removed from their tanks. They would hide. They would squeeze into a corner where they couldn’t be pried out. They would hol
by azakai 11y ago
> Some octopuses did not like being removed from their tanks. They would hide. They would squeeze into a corner where they couldn’t be pried out. They would hold on to some object with their arms and not let go.
> Some would let themselves be captured, only to use the net as a trampoline. They’d leap off the mesh and onto the floor — and then run for it. Yes, run. “You’d chase them under the tank, back and forth, like you were chasing a cat,” Warburton said. “It’s so weird!”
> [..] “Catching her for the maze always took twenty minutes,” Warburton said. “She’d grip onto something and not let go. Once she got stuck in a filter and we couldn’t get her out. It was awful!”
What seems far more awful is using these apparently-highly-intelligent animals for laboratory experiments, against their will.
This isn't the usual argument of animal rights. Here we have a highly intelligent and inventive creature repeatedly trying its best to escape - it's hard not to identify with it! - and the scientists just recapture it by force. They actively oppose the animal's attempts to liberate itself, again and again.
- Retra 11y agoAll wild animals try to escape...
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- bduerst 11y agoMost wild animals lack the cognitive and spatial abilities of octopodes, or match their use of tools. There is a difference between sprinting away and making planned, sapient decisions to escape. The intelligence of some cephalopods is a controversial topic, as their limb dexterity and brain-to-mass ratios makes them unique, and they have some protection from research in the E.U.
- Retra 11y ago>There is a difference between sprinting away and making planned, sapient decisions to escape. What's the difference? They're both instinctual responses to a perceived threat. Now, I'm not saying we should be killing animals indiscriminately. I'm saying that decision has nothing to do with whether the animal knows which direction to flee or how to hide. That's like trying to decide whether to buy a house based on the number in the ones place of its price.
- robyonnodes 11y agoWhat are you even talking about? Azakai is talking about the ethics behind this type of testing on a highly intelligent animal; the giant Pacific octopus. You can't talk about instinctual responses when you have absolutely on clue what's going off in the mind of Athena and what that particular octopus views as a threat. >Now, I'm not saying we should be killing animals indiscriminately Wow your a real saint! Did you even read the article of are you going to keep on throwing out Red herrings? I'm not going to even touch that house analogy...
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- minusSeven 11y agoDo you feel the same way when you have chicken or beef at dinner knowing all these animals were butchered "against their will". Maybe you feel less empathy for animals that aren't intelligent. This is all a part of being human. Its the way we are and most of us don't even think its something wrong. I doubt this will change so you need to deal with it.
- jobigoud 11y ago> This isn't the usual argument of animal rights It is the argument for animal rights (as opposed to animal welfare). For example the "Nonhuman Rights Project" works for the bodily liberty and integrity of great apes, dolphins, and elephants within the US legal framework.
- etangent 11y ago> What seems far more awful is using these apparently-highly-intelligent animals for laboratory experiments, against their will. So I take it you would have released Ava in Ex Machina?
- vdaniuk 11y ago>and the scientists just recapture it by force. They actively oppose the animal's attempts to liberate itself, again and again. I guess you subscribe to deontological ethics? I wonder how would you reconcile it with the following questions. What's your stance on police actively opposing the [offending] human's attempts to liberate itself? What's your stance on doctors actively opposing the [considered mentally ill] attempts to liberate itself? Obviously humans are highly intelligent and inventive creatures. Prison torture, rape and humiliation may not be on the same level of cruelty as laboratory experiments but mental institutions procedures are definitely comparable.
- scrumper 11y agoThat's a false equivalence surely. Animals don't have a stake in the law- and policy-making process, whereas humans do - including all those potentially subject to those actions in the future. In essence, humans have agreed to do these things to themselves. Animals do not have that opportunity.
- vdaniuk 11y ago>humans have agreed to do these things to themselves Care to elaborate how exactly humans agreed to do these things to themselves?
- scrumper 11y agoGlibly, subgroups of humans called "the government" institutionalize procedures for the treatment of other humans. Without going into which groups of people are represented by these governments, which is a very important discussion in its own right, the species has its own voice. That's not the case with octopuses or lab rats or what have you.
- digikata 11y ago> Here we have a highly intelligent and inventive creature repeatedly trying its best to escape - it's hard not to identify with it! - and the scientists just recapture it by force. > They actively oppose the animal's attempts to liberate itself, again and again. That makes me think about the Rat Park experiments. Treatment of the animal's may play a bigger role in the results of experiments than anyone suspects. Especially as the intelligence of the animal increases.