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Yeah well the lawyers in question will probably look like shit if they lose so they want money so it's not a complete loss. Horrible but probably true.

by batou 11y ago

bitJericho 11y ago
I don't know about you but I don't work for free, even for the noblest of causes, unless I can put food on the table (eg, the lawyers need to eat).
- batou 11y ago
  Good publicity is a good return if you're a lawyer and probably cheaper than marketing so it doesn't always work like that. Otherwise, yep.
  - louithethrid 11y ago
    Last time i checked good publicity had zero-calories and also came with a goverment will set you on the black-list for all times.
- matthewmacleod 11y ago
  That's a bit of a false dichotomy though, isn't it? In the same way that lots of tech firms release some open-source code (in some cases, quite a lot!), legal firms often do a fair bit of pro-bono work. Releasing stuff/providing legal services for free doesn't mean you can't eat!
  - flexie 11y ago
    Lawyers charge a lot per hour but also have large overheads, especially trial lawyers. The amounts mentioned in the fundraising page seem small. I am guessing Chelsea Manning already gets a discount and that they will have to raise much more later on. A high profile criminal case such as the one against Chelsea Manning where the government throws in many man-years will only be successful if the defense also throws in a team of competent defense attorneys, researchers, assistants etc. In a huge case like this that stretches over several years and where there is vast information to deal with, this could amount to decades of man-years. A one man boutiques usually can't handle such cases and the largest law firms typically don't take such cases. So the defendant often has to pick among law firms with 5-20 lawyers. Such small firms usually cannot afford to allocate that much manpower to pro bono cases. But even if they could afford it, there are numerous faster and cheaper options for marketing. As for professional satisfaction, there are plenty of cases that provide that and pays a salary meanwhile.
- vdaniuk 11y ago
  Put food on the table? Are you for real? Lawyers who work at the law firms that have expertise to represent Chelsea Manning are probably in 0.1% of top earners worldwide. If they can't work pro bono, who can?
  - minot 11y ago
    I was going to quote an article about how the wealthy 0.1% is a different demographic than the top 1% because the rest of the top one percent are workers for the top 0.1%. However, I guess these top one percent US people would be 0.1% worldwide.
    - vdaniuk 11y ago
      A person with $200 000 yearly income (a very conservative assumption for top lawyers) is in top %0.04 richest people by income.[0] Yeah, right, they have to "put food" on the table. [0] http://www.globalrichlist.com http://www.globalrichlist.com
      - nicboobees 11y ago
        Rich people don't just swim in money you know. It's fairly likely they'll have far more expenses than poor people. So they might have a better pension plan, pay a gardener. Might send their kids to private school. etc etc So someone earning $200k could well be less well off after expenses than someone earning $50k.
        JupiterMoon 11y ago
        Except that their kids have better chances in life, their retirement is secure, they have a nice garden to relax in etc etc... Money well spent if you ask me.
        nicboobees 11y ago
        I agree. I'm just saying that just because someone is a lawyer, and has a reasonably high salary, doesn't necessarily follow that they're swimming in money.
- vijayr 11y ago
  That depends. Not everyone needs to work for money. There are also people who set aside certain amount of hours per week for pro bono work. Not everything has to be about money all the time.
- ekianjo 11y ago
  > (eg, the lawyers need to eat). At the price they are working at, it's not about eating anymore, it's about being able to afford 3 houses, an apartment in New York, Cocaine every Friday and the Tesla or a BMW to complete the picture. I have never seen a poor lawyer.
  - icelancer 11y ago
    My friend is a criminal defense attorney for those who are usually unable to pay market rates. He's making a lot less than I was as a senior developer and not much more when I was a junior developer. Factor in law school loans and time spent in the books and he's not exactly rolling in cash.
    - ekianjo 11y ago
      > criminal defense attorney for those who are usually unable to pay market rates So obviously he is not the typical lawyer.
      - bmelton 11y ago
        That depends on your definition of typical, I suppose. http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs/lawyer-salaries/ http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs/lawyer-salaries/ There's indeed a lot of potential to make third-house money as a lawyer, but it is by no means a given, and it seems a lot less likely than you think.
      - tat45 11y ago
        "Typical lawyers" make well under $100k per year. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2F_Lawyer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2F_Lawyer/... Average salaries are skewed because the top-end is so high. If you have all the bona fides (top-tier law school/clerking opportunities, high-paying specialty, good track record of winning cases) you can command an astronomical hourly rate. However, the vast majority of lawyers don't get those opportunities, and are working schlubs just like the rest of us.
      - TallGuyShort 11y ago
- analog31 11y ago
  In my view, a side effect of our legal system is that it's a very generous public gift to lawyers. And there's probably a perverse incentive for lawyers to manipulate that system to make it more lucrative and exclusive (e.g., more complex, so that regular people can't take care of their own minor legal issues). As such, I see no problem with maintaining a more equitable distribution of legal support. The ideal situation would be to establish a social norm, where successful pro bono defense work was a badge of honor. This work should include not only criminal defense, but also helping the poor deal with civil cases.

Yeah well the lawyers in question will probably look like shit if they lose so they want money so it's not a complete loss. Horrible but probably true.

by batou 11y ago

Yeah well the lawyers in question will probably look like shit if they lose so they want money so it's not a complete loss. Horrible but probably true.

bitJericho 11y ago

I don't know about you but I don't work for free, even for the noblest of causes, unless I can put food on the table (eg, the lawyers need to eat).

batou 11y ago
Good publicity is a good return if you're a lawyer and probably cheaper than marketing so it doesn't always work like that. Otherwise, yep.
- louithethrid 11y ago
  Last time i checked good publicity had zero-calories and also came with a goverment will set you on the black-list for all times.
matthewmacleod 11y ago
That's a bit of a false dichotomy though, isn't it? In the same way that lots of tech firms release some open-source code (in some cases, quite a lot!), legal firms often do a fair bit of pro-bono work. Releasing stuff/providing legal services for free doesn't mean you can't eat!
- flexie 11y ago
  Lawyers charge a lot per hour but also have large overheads, especially trial lawyers. The amounts mentioned in the fundraising page seem small. I am guessing Chelsea Manning already gets a discount and that they will have to raise much more later on. A high profile criminal case such as the one against Chelsea Manning where the government throws in many man-years will only be successful if the defense also throws in a team of competent defense attorneys, researchers, assistants etc. In a huge case like this that stretches over several years and where there is vast information to deal with, this could amount to decades of man-years. A one man boutiques usually can't handle such cases and the largest law firms typically don't take such cases. So the defendant often has to pick among law firms with 5-20 lawyers. Such small firms usually cannot afford to allocate that much manpower to pro bono cases. But even if they could afford it, there are numerous faster and cheaper options for marketing. As for professional satisfaction, there are plenty of cases that provide that and pays a salary meanwhile.
vdaniuk 11y ago
Put food on the table? Are you for real? Lawyers who work at the law firms that have expertise to represent Chelsea Manning are probably in 0.1% of top earners worldwide. If they can't work pro bono, who can?
- minot 11y ago
  I was going to quote an article about how the wealthy 0.1% is a different demographic than the top 1% because the rest of the top one percent are workers for the top 0.1%. However, I guess these top one percent US people would be 0.1% worldwide.
  - vdaniuk 11y ago
    A person with $200 000 yearly income (a very conservative assumption for top lawyers) is in top %0.04 richest people by income.[0] Yeah, right, they have to "put food" on the table. [0] http://www.globalrichlist.com http://www.globalrichlist.com
    - nicboobees 11y ago
      Rich people don't just swim in money you know. It's fairly likely they'll have far more expenses than poor people. So they might have a better pension plan, pay a gardener. Might send their kids to private school. etc etc So someone earning $200k could well be less well off after expenses than someone earning $50k.
      - JupiterMoon 11y ago
        Except that their kids have better chances in life, their retirement is secure, they have a nice garden to relax in etc etc... Money well spent if you ask me.
        nicboobees 11y ago
        I agree. I'm just saying that just because someone is a lawyer, and has a reasonably high salary, doesn't necessarily follow that they're swimming in money.
vijayr 11y ago
That depends. Not everyone needs to work for money. There are also people who set aside certain amount of hours per week for pro bono work. Not everything has to be about money all the time.
ekianjo 11y ago
> (eg, the lawyers need to eat). At the price they are working at, it's not about eating anymore, it's about being able to afford 3 houses, an apartment in New York, Cocaine every Friday and the Tesla or a BMW to complete the picture. I have never seen a poor lawyer.
- icelancer 11y ago
  My friend is a criminal defense attorney for those who are usually unable to pay market rates. He's making a lot less than I was as a senior developer and not much more when I was a junior developer. Factor in law school loans and time spent in the books and he's not exactly rolling in cash.
  - ekianjo 11y ago
    > criminal defense attorney for those who are usually unable to pay market rates So obviously he is not the typical lawyer.
    - bmelton 11y ago
      That depends on your definition of typical, I suppose. http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs/lawyer-salaries/ http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs/lawyer-salaries/ There's indeed a lot of potential to make third-house money as a lawyer, but it is by no means a given, and it seems a lot less likely than you think.
    - tat45 11y ago
      "Typical lawyers" make well under $100k per year. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2F_Lawyer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2F_Lawyer/... Average salaries are skewed because the top-end is so high. If you have all the bona fides (top-tier law school/clerking opportunities, high-paying specialty, good track record of winning cases) you can command an astronomical hourly rate. However, the vast majority of lawyers don't get those opportunities, and are working schlubs just like the rest of us.
    - TallGuyShort 11y ago
analog31 11y ago
In my view, a side effect of our legal system is that it's a very generous public gift to lawyers. And there's probably a perverse incentive for lawyers to manipulate that system to make it more lucrative and exclusive (e.g., more complex, so that regular people can't take care of their own minor legal issues). As such, I see no problem with maintaining a more equitable distribution of legal support. The ideal situation would be to establish a social norm, where successful pro bono defense work was a badge of honor. This work should include not only criminal defense, but also helping the poor deal with civil cases.