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Perhaps a bit extreme, but the underlying point is applicable here. First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist.

Perhaps a bit extreme, but the underlying point is applicable here. First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

SwellJoe 11y ago
There is no talk of banning socialists, trade unionists, Jews, or any other thing that is not a subreddit or user devoted to hate. Further, no one is "coming for" redditors that spew hate...they're merely being shown the door. The comparison of this quote, which is about people literally being thrown into jail for their beliefs, to racists being told they can't post hate speech on a privately owned website, is disingenuous, at best.
- baddox 11y ago
  > about reddit’s policy on the more offensive and obscene content on our platform. As is readily apparent, literally anything can be considered offensive and obscene.
  - fixermark 11y ago
    I think we'll have to agree to disagree on definitions of "readily apparent" and "literally anything." Though the "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity is frustratingly open, it actually works in practice. Real human societies have implemented it and continue to implement it. This is not something you can write a script for, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work (I find technically-minded people generally have a bias against things that can't even be scripted in theory... Those things make up a lot of the world, inconveniently). And yes, that means Redditors live in a world of ambiguity. Welcome to the world, I guess. Such ambiguity doesn't imply that, say, /r/science or /r/popmusic would be on the chopping block, and it'd be absurd to argue it does. At least, the fact that /r/coontown is on the chopping block doesn't threaten /r/science any more than some hypothetical change in leadership in the future that decides Reddit is more profitable without any subreddits, and that can be a good enough point to settle on. So relax; your favorite subreddit is not under threat, unless it probably should be. Ambiguity is the nature of real social structures, because humans are ambiguous creatures. ;)
    - baddox 11y ago
      > Though the "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity is frustratingly open, it actually works in practice. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on that as well. There is nowhere near as much freedom of expression in the world as I would like. I'm not sure if you have a definition for "it works in practice" other than "real human societies have implemented it." I suspect there is a huge correlation between people who think that current policies are working fine and people who have never been affected by those policies. > So relax; your favorite subreddit is not under threat, unless it probably should be. Good grief. That is a very troubling statement.
    - mreiland 11y ago
      I don't understand why you would claim no one who posts in /r/science would ever be capable of producing a post, opinion, or content that could fall under reddits new guidelines for deletiong and/or banning. Do you believe everyone who touches /r/science cannot, or will not, touch these other subreddits (and vice versa, the people in /r/coontown cannot post in /r/science?). On what do you base that belief?
      - fixermark 11y ago
        That's not my belief at all. The belief is that there's no likely scenario where /r/science gets killed because it's a toxic wasteland of racism. /r/coontown, in contrast, gets no such consideration; it is a toxic wasteland of racism. And if it somehow comes to pass that /r/science's content were to follow in coontown's footsteps, then by all means, cut /r/science out too. Reddit's owners are moving in a direction where they've decided to take a small stand against the worst of the worst harmful subreddits, and people seem to be taking this as a dog-whistle that every forum is up for possible deletion at the whim of some arbitrary, uncontrolled bogeyman tomorrow. That's not how obscenity censorship works and it isn't how human decency works. It's how people of a certain political bent like to pretend they work (because the world would be easier to understand and predict if that were true), but that belief doesn't stand the test of reality.
        mreiland 11y ago
- mreiland 11y ago
  And yet, for someone who values the freedom of expression, limiting another persons freedom due to something as simple as 'offense' is a slippery slope to limiting their freedom of expression due to someone else taking offense at what they say. This is why the quote is applicable and your response is lazy.

SwellJoe 11y ago

There is no talk of banning socialists, trade unionists, Jews, or any other thing that is not a subreddit or user devoted to hate. Further, no one is "coming for" redditors that spew hate...they're merely being shown the door. The comparison of this quote, which is about people literally being thrown into jail for their beliefs, to racists being told they can't post hate speech on a privately owned website, is disingenuous, at best.

baddox 11y ago
> about reddit’s policy on the more offensive and obscene content on our platform. As is readily apparent, literally anything can be considered offensive and obscene.
- fixermark 11y ago
  I think we'll have to agree to disagree on definitions of "readily apparent" and "literally anything." Though the "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity is frustratingly open, it actually works in practice. Real human societies have implemented it and continue to implement it. This is not something you can write a script for, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work (I find technically-minded people generally have a bias against things that can't even be scripted in theory... Those things make up a lot of the world, inconveniently). And yes, that means Redditors live in a world of ambiguity. Welcome to the world, I guess. Such ambiguity doesn't imply that, say, /r/science or /r/popmusic would be on the chopping block, and it'd be absurd to argue it does. At least, the fact that /r/coontown is on the chopping block doesn't threaten /r/science any more than some hypothetical change in leadership in the future that decides Reddit is more profitable without any subreddits, and that can be a good enough point to settle on. So relax; your favorite subreddit is not under threat, unless it probably should be. Ambiguity is the nature of real social structures, because humans are ambiguous creatures. ;)
  - baddox 11y ago
    > Though the "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity is frustratingly open, it actually works in practice. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on that as well. There is nowhere near as much freedom of expression in the world as I would like. I'm not sure if you have a definition for "it works in practice" other than "real human societies have implemented it." I suspect there is a huge correlation between people who think that current policies are working fine and people who have never been affected by those policies. > So relax; your favorite subreddit is not under threat, unless it probably should be. Good grief. That is a very troubling statement.
  - mreiland 11y ago
    I don't understand why you would claim no one who posts in /r/science would ever be capable of producing a post, opinion, or content that could fall under reddits new guidelines for deletiong and/or banning. Do you believe everyone who touches /r/science cannot, or will not, touch these other subreddits (and vice versa, the people in /r/coontown cannot post in /r/science?). On what do you base that belief?
    - fixermark 11y ago
      That's not my belief at all. The belief is that there's no likely scenario where /r/science gets killed because it's a toxic wasteland of racism. /r/coontown, in contrast, gets no such consideration; it is a toxic wasteland of racism. And if it somehow comes to pass that /r/science's content were to follow in coontown's footsteps, then by all means, cut /r/science out too. Reddit's owners are moving in a direction where they've decided to take a small stand against the worst of the worst harmful subreddits, and people seem to be taking this as a dog-whistle that every forum is up for possible deletion at the whim of some arbitrary, uncontrolled bogeyman tomorrow. That's not how obscenity censorship works and it isn't how human decency works. It's how people of a certain political bent like to pretend they work (because the world would be easier to understand and predict if that were true), but that belief doesn't stand the test of reality.
      - mreiland 11y ago
mreiland 11y ago
And yet, for someone who values the freedom of expression, limiting another persons freedom due to something as simple as 'offense' is a slippery slope to limiting their freedom of expression due to someone else taking offense at what they say. This is why the quote is applicable and your response is lazy.