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So, why are you here at HN, which has much stricter guidelines and much more active moderators than reddit will ever have site-wide? Reddit is still vastly more

So, why are you here at HN, which has much stricter guidelines and much more active moderators than reddit will ever have site-wide? Reddit is still vastly more "free" than HN, and yet...the caliber of conversation here is generally higher (not always, and the HN demographic has its blind spots), and I believe it is precisely because it has no tolerance for fools. In short, I don't care about racist's "right" to rant on reddit. They can go write it on the wall of the cave they live in, for all I care.

baddox 11y ago
> So, why are you here at HN HN is roughly the equivalent of a single subreddit on reddit. I don't have a problem with individual subreddits with strict moderation, because those policies don't affect the policies of other subreddits. HN doesn't (as far as I know) intend to be a host for a plethora of communities each dedicated to a specific topic or hobby. > Reddit is still vastly more "free" than HN, and yet...the caliber of conversation here is generally higher (not always, and the HN demographic has its blind spots), and I believe it is precisely because it has no tolerance for fools. HN generally has high quality discussion, but so do many (mostly small) subreddits.
- fixermark 11y ago
  Are those subreddits threatened by a ban on /r/fatpeoplehate? If not, there's very little to be concerned about.
  - mreiland 11y ago
    Perhaps a bit extreme, but the underlying point is applicable here. First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
    - SwellJoe 11y ago
      There is no talk of banning socialists, trade unionists, Jews, or any other thing that is not a subreddit or user devoted to hate. Further, no one is "coming for" redditors that spew hate...they're merely being shown the door. The comparison of this quote, which is about people literally being thrown into jail for their beliefs, to racists being told they can't post hate speech on a privately owned website, is disingenuous, at best.
      - baddox 11y ago
        > about reddit’s policy on the more offensive and obscene content on our platform. As is readily apparent, literally anything can be considered offensive and obscene.
        fixermark 11y ago
        I think we'll have to agree to disagree on definitions of "readily apparent" and "literally anything." Though the "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity is frustratingly open, it actually works in practice. Real human societies have implemented it and continue to implement it. This is not something you can write a script for, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work (I find technically-minded people generally have a bias against things that can't even be scripted in theory... Those things make up a lot of the world, inconveniently). And yes, that means Redditors live in a world of ambiguity. Welcome to the world, I guess. Such ambiguity doesn't imply that, say, /r/science or /r/popmusic would be on the chopping block, and it'd be absurd to argue it does. At least, the fact that /r/coontown is on the chopping block doesn't threaten /r/science any more than some hypothetical change in leadership in the future that decides Reddit is more profitable without any subreddits, and that can be a good enough point to settle on. So relax; your favorite subreddit is not under threat, unless it probably should be. Ambiguity is the nature of real social structures, because humans are ambiguous creatures. ;)
        baddox 11y ago
        > Though the "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity is frustratingly open, it actually works in practice. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on that as well. There is nowhere near as much freedom of expression in the world as I would like. I'm not sure if you have a definition for "it works in practice" other than "real human societies have implemented it." I suspect there is a huge correlation between people who think that current policies are working fine and people who have never been affected by those policies. > So relax; your favorite subreddit is not under threat, unless it probably should be. Good grief. That is a very troubling statement.
  - baddox 11y ago
    They are not threatened by a ban on /r/fatpeoplehate, but they are absolutely threatened by a vaguely policy for banning things that are deemed offensive or inappropriate.
mreiland 11y ago
I don't agree that the caliber of conversation is higher here. It's more directed since HN has a single topic, but I've never had someone completely change the way I think about a topic the way I have at reddit. The amazing part about reddit is the sheer spectrum of people you meet. For you that's obviously not interest, but for me, I'd much rather have that experience than what HN gives me. But I also don't choose, I simply experience both, which is the answer to your original question. It's also the answer to Hubski's complaints about reddit. I like being able to have a deep conversation with someone about software dev, laugh at a cat pic, and learn something new about a subject I know little about, all in the span of a few hours. HN will never give that sort of experience.

baddox 11y ago

> So, why are you here at HN HN is roughly the equivalent of a single subreddit on reddit. I don't have a problem with individual subreddits with strict moderation, because those policies don't affect the policies of other subreddits. HN doesn't (as far as I know) intend to be a host for a plethora of communities each dedicated to a specific topic or hobby. > Reddit is still vastly more "free" than HN, and yet...the caliber of conversation here is generally higher (not always, and the HN demographic has its blind spots), and I believe it is precisely because it has no tolerance for fools. HN generally has high quality discussion, but so do many (mostly small) subreddits.

fixermark 11y ago
Are those subreddits threatened by a ban on /r/fatpeoplehate? If not, there's very little to be concerned about.
- mreiland 11y ago
  Perhaps a bit extreme, but the underlying point is applicable here. First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    There is no talk of banning socialists, trade unionists, Jews, or any other thing that is not a subreddit or user devoted to hate. Further, no one is "coming for" redditors that spew hate...they're merely being shown the door. The comparison of this quote, which is about people literally being thrown into jail for their beliefs, to racists being told they can't post hate speech on a privately owned website, is disingenuous, at best.
    - baddox 11y ago
      > about reddit’s policy on the more offensive and obscene content on our platform. As is readily apparent, literally anything can be considered offensive and obscene.
      - fixermark 11y ago
        I think we'll have to agree to disagree on definitions of "readily apparent" and "literally anything." Though the "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity is frustratingly open, it actually works in practice. Real human societies have implemented it and continue to implement it. This is not something you can write a script for, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work (I find technically-minded people generally have a bias against things that can't even be scripted in theory... Those things make up a lot of the world, inconveniently). And yes, that means Redditors live in a world of ambiguity. Welcome to the world, I guess. Such ambiguity doesn't imply that, say, /r/science or /r/popmusic would be on the chopping block, and it'd be absurd to argue it does. At least, the fact that /r/coontown is on the chopping block doesn't threaten /r/science any more than some hypothetical change in leadership in the future that decides Reddit is more profitable without any subreddits, and that can be a good enough point to settle on. So relax; your favorite subreddit is not under threat, unless it probably should be. Ambiguity is the nature of real social structures, because humans are ambiguous creatures. ;)
        baddox 11y ago
        > Though the "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity is frustratingly open, it actually works in practice. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on that as well. There is nowhere near as much freedom of expression in the world as I would like. I'm not sure if you have a definition for "it works in practice" other than "real human societies have implemented it." I suspect there is a huge correlation between people who think that current policies are working fine and people who have never been affected by those policies. > So relax; your favorite subreddit is not under threat, unless it probably should be. Good grief. That is a very troubling statement.
- baddox 11y ago
  They are not threatened by a ban on /r/fatpeoplehate, but they are absolutely threatened by a vaguely policy for banning things that are deemed offensive or inappropriate.

mreiland 11y ago

I don't agree that the caliber of conversation is higher here. It's more directed since HN has a single topic, but I've never had someone completely change the way I think about a topic the way I have at reddit. The amazing part about reddit is the sheer spectrum of people you meet. For you that's obviously not interest, but for me, I'd much rather have that experience than what HN gives me. But I also don't choose, I simply experience both, which is the answer to your original question. It's also the answer to Hubski's complaints about reddit. I like being able to have a deep conversation with someone about software dev, laugh at a cat pic, and learn something new about a subject I know little about, all in the span of a few hours. HN will never give that sort of experience.