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> The only rational argument people can make against the "purging" (of blatantly racist etc. subreddits) is the "slippery slope" argument, which is usually know

by baddox 11y ago

> The only rational argument people can make against the "purging" (of blatantly racist etc. subreddits) is the "slippery slope" argument, which is usually known as a fallacious logical device. Not at all true. I don't like any removal of content by reddit employees (as opposed to subreddit moderators) beyond what is required by law. Whether it leads to more and more removal in the future is irrelevant. I would like reddit to be a place for completely free, uncensored expression. And before the political philosophy experts pounce, I am well aware of the argument. It's not a free speech violation when it's a private company choosing what content to host. I'm not saying reddit doesn't have the right to censor. I'm just saying I would prefer that they didn't.

austenallred 11y ago
> I'm not saying reddit doesn't have the right to censor. I'm just saying I would prefer that they didn't. I'm genuinely curious as to why. Do you feel your experience on reddit is harmed if /r/coontown is gone? Or is it just the principle of the matter?
- baddox 11y ago
  > Do you feel your experience on reddit is harmed if /r/coontown is gone? Not directly, of course. My experience on reddit isn't directly harmed if any community I don't visit is removed. But it would be pretty obviously unrealistic for me to propose that reddit remove all subreddits except for the couple of dozen that I'm subscribed to.
  - johrn 11y ago
    But there's obviously some middle ground between 'free-for-all' and 'only your subreddits' that allows for moderation of the subreddits that are literally evil.
    - baddox 11y ago
      Sure, there is plenty of middle ground. It's a continuum. I just personally prefer the free end of the continuum.
      - fixermark 11y ago
        I think you still get the free end of the continuum if /r/coontown is gone.
        baddox 11y ago
        The discussion is not over whether to ban only /r/coontown.
        fixermark 11y ago
        But the discussion is also not over whether to ban most, all, or even some subreddit's. It's over a fairly targeted removal, though reddit doesn't have a rubric for targeting in the future, which understandably makes some people nervous---people who like a nice, ordered, clear set of rails to ride on. But this is social, and that's not how social works. It still doesn't take much common sense to guess at what's in and what's out. I mean, what we're basically seeing is this; Yishan Wong, 2012: "We stand for free speech. This means we are not going to ban distasteful subreddits. We will not ban legal content even if we find it odious or if we personally condemn it." spez, 2015: Wow, that REALLY didn't work. So we're not going to do THAT anymore. Tune in on Thursday and we'll talk about what we'll do instead. Does this mean your favorite subreddits might get killed? Possibly. But probably not. And that's likely to be good enough for an awful lot of users. More importantly, "an Internet with a front page that doesn't have a CoonTown is a better internet" is a pretty easy assertion to buy.
        arprocter 11y ago
        Until they explain what their plans are tomorrow, we are all just guessing what the future will be
        someone7x 11y ago
johrn 11y ago
> I would like reddit to be a place for completely free, uncensored expression. This is nice in theory, but it basically requires defending the rights of hate groups to silence those they hate. It's hard to freely express yourself when there are people calling for your extermination, or treating everything you say as if it came from the mouth of a five year old.
- baddox 11y ago
  Why would the targets of hate speech be in subreddits dedicated to that hate speech?
  - johrn 11y ago
    They wouldn't be, but neither is that hate speech limited to the subreddits that are dedicated for it. I am 100% certain that I could go to the comments of any top post on pics, videos, funny, games and probably a dozen other default subs and find some hate speech with a positive score. Remove the subreddits that these people call home, and they automatically feel less welcomed on the site.
    - baddox 11y ago
      > I am 100% certain that I could go to the comments of any top post on pics, videos, funny, games and probably a dozen other default subs and find some hate speech with a positive score. You're saying you could go look for hate speech and find it. That doesn't seem all that troubling to me. Don't go look for it, and you will find it much less frequently.
      - johrn 11y ago
        Maybe it's not as troubling if it needs to be searched for. But it doesn't need to be searched for. It's everywhere on the defaults, that's the troubling part. You don't have to go to a specifically racist subreddit to see racism. You don't have to go to a specifically woman-hating subreddit to see misogyny. I'm saying that it is everywhere. Not "I could find some hatred in some submissions", but "I could find hatred in any submission".
SwellJoe 11y ago
So, why are you here at HN, which has much stricter guidelines and much more active moderators than reddit will ever have site-wide? Reddit is still vastly more "free" than HN, and yet...the caliber of conversation here is generally higher (not always, and the HN demographic has its blind spots), and I believe it is precisely because it has no tolerance for fools. In short, I don't care about racist's "right" to rant on reddit. They can go write it on the wall of the cave they live in, for all I care.
- baddox 11y ago
  > So, why are you here at HN HN is roughly the equivalent of a single subreddit on reddit. I don't have a problem with individual subreddits with strict moderation, because those policies don't affect the policies of other subreddits. HN doesn't (as far as I know) intend to be a host for a plethora of communities each dedicated to a specific topic or hobby. > Reddit is still vastly more "free" than HN, and yet...the caliber of conversation here is generally higher (not always, and the HN demographic has its blind spots), and I believe it is precisely because it has no tolerance for fools. HN generally has high quality discussion, but so do many (mostly small) subreddits.
  - fixermark 11y ago
    Are those subreddits threatened by a ban on /r/fatpeoplehate? If not, there's very little to be concerned about.
    - mreiland 11y ago
      Perhaps a bit extreme, but the underlying point is applicable here. First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
      - SwellJoe 11y ago

by baddox 11y ago

austenallred 11y ago

> I'm not saying reddit doesn't have the right to censor. I'm just saying I would prefer that they didn't. I'm genuinely curious as to why. Do you feel your experience on reddit is harmed if /r/coontown is gone? Or is it just the principle of the matter?

baddox 11y ago
> Do you feel your experience on reddit is harmed if /r/coontown is gone? Not directly, of course. My experience on reddit isn't directly harmed if any community I don't visit is removed. But it would be pretty obviously unrealistic for me to propose that reddit remove all subreddits except for the couple of dozen that I'm subscribed to.
- johrn 11y ago
  But there's obviously some middle ground between 'free-for-all' and 'only your subreddits' that allows for moderation of the subreddits that are literally evil.
  - baddox 11y ago
    Sure, there is plenty of middle ground. It's a continuum. I just personally prefer the free end of the continuum.
    - fixermark 11y ago
      I think you still get the free end of the continuum if /r/coontown is gone.
      - baddox 11y ago
        The discussion is not over whether to ban only /r/coontown.
        fixermark 11y ago
        But the discussion is also not over whether to ban most, all, or even some subreddit's. It's over a fairly targeted removal, though reddit doesn't have a rubric for targeting in the future, which understandably makes some people nervous---people who like a nice, ordered, clear set of rails to ride on. But this is social, and that's not how social works. It still doesn't take much common sense to guess at what's in and what's out. I mean, what we're basically seeing is this; Yishan Wong, 2012: "We stand for free speech. This means we are not going to ban distasteful subreddits. We will not ban legal content even if we find it odious or if we personally condemn it." spez, 2015: Wow, that REALLY didn't work. So we're not going to do THAT anymore. Tune in on Thursday and we'll talk about what we'll do instead. Does this mean your favorite subreddits might get killed? Possibly. But probably not. And that's likely to be good enough for an awful lot of users. More importantly, "an Internet with a front page that doesn't have a CoonTown is a better internet" is a pretty easy assertion to buy.
        arprocter 11y ago
        Until they explain what their plans are tomorrow, we are all just guessing what the future will be
        someone7x 11y ago

johrn 11y ago

> I would like reddit to be a place for completely free, uncensored expression. This is nice in theory, but it basically requires defending the rights of hate groups to silence those they hate. It's hard to freely express yourself when there are people calling for your extermination, or treating everything you say as if it came from the mouth of a five year old.

baddox 11y ago
Why would the targets of hate speech be in subreddits dedicated to that hate speech?
- johrn 11y ago
  They wouldn't be, but neither is that hate speech limited to the subreddits that are dedicated for it. I am 100% certain that I could go to the comments of any top post on pics, videos, funny, games and probably a dozen other default subs and find some hate speech with a positive score. Remove the subreddits that these people call home, and they automatically feel less welcomed on the site.
  - baddox 11y ago
    > I am 100% certain that I could go to the comments of any top post on pics, videos, funny, games and probably a dozen other default subs and find some hate speech with a positive score. You're saying you could go look for hate speech and find it. That doesn't seem all that troubling to me. Don't go look for it, and you will find it much less frequently.
    - johrn 11y ago
      Maybe it's not as troubling if it needs to be searched for. But it doesn't need to be searched for. It's everywhere on the defaults, that's the troubling part. You don't have to go to a specifically racist subreddit to see racism. You don't have to go to a specifically woman-hating subreddit to see misogyny. I'm saying that it is everywhere. Not "I could find some hatred in some submissions", but "I could find hatred in any submission".

SwellJoe 11y ago

So, why are you here at HN, which has much stricter guidelines and much more active moderators than reddit will ever have site-wide? Reddit is still vastly more "free" than HN, and yet...the caliber of conversation here is generally higher (not always, and the HN demographic has its blind spots), and I believe it is precisely because it has no tolerance for fools. In short, I don't care about racist's "right" to rant on reddit. They can go write it on the wall of the cave they live in, for all I care.

baddox 11y ago
> So, why are you here at HN HN is roughly the equivalent of a single subreddit on reddit. I don't have a problem with individual subreddits with strict moderation, because those policies don't affect the policies of other subreddits. HN doesn't (as far as I know) intend to be a host for a plethora of communities each dedicated to a specific topic or hobby. > Reddit is still vastly more "free" than HN, and yet...the caliber of conversation here is generally higher (not always, and the HN demographic has its blind spots), and I believe it is precisely because it has no tolerance for fools. HN generally has high quality discussion, but so do many (mostly small) subreddits.
- fixermark 11y ago
  Are those subreddits threatened by a ban on /r/fatpeoplehate? If not, there's very little to be concerned about.
  - mreiland 11y ago
    Perhaps a bit extreme, but the underlying point is applicable here. First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
    - SwellJoe 11y ago