4 ms·

The yelling analogy doesn't really work, because the vast majority of the controversial content is content you have to go looking for to find. Obviously there c

by baddox 11y ago

The yelling analogy doesn't really work, because the vast majority of the controversial content is content you have to go looking for to find. Obviously there can be some leakages, but most people learn about this stuff because tech blogs or media companies deliberately go looking for it to "expose" how bad reddit is.

sharkweek 11y ago
Fair - let's make it a little room in the back where someone might accidentally stumble. Especially when Gawker posts a story talking specifically about it sending people to that dark corner making them think THAT is what Costco is all about. Terrible impression to make on new customers, thus Costco decides, eh, fuck it, let's just get rid of the little room entirely to avoid this repetitious problem.
- baddox 11y ago
  How would you accidentally stumble onto it? You might make a typo, which is a fair point, but that is probably exceedingly rare. Or you might be linked, but you can already be linked anywhere from anywhere else on the web, so that's hardly a meaningful argument.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Or you might be linked, but you can already be linked anywhere from anywhere else on the web, so that's hardly a meaningful argument. Its a meaningful argument from the POV of Reddit management, and their effort to build a profitable business, given that what people can be linked to that is tied to Reddit -- unlike what people can be linked to that is not tied to Reddit -- impacts the perception of Reddit and both the audience it attracts and its attractiveness to advertisers.
    - baddox 11y ago
      > Its a meaningful argument from the POV of Reddit management, and their effort to build a profitable business Oh absolutely. I'm not disputing that. Of course they are doing all of this in pursuit of profit (or at least in pursuit of pleasing their board). The trouble is that, in my view, there is a conflict between the goal of pleasing the reddit board and the goal of creating a vibrant community.
      - dragonwriter 11y ago
        > The trouble is that, in my view, there is a conflict between the goal of pleasing the reddit board and the goal of creating a vibrant community. If you can't run a business that brings in the money to keep the lights on, you can't maintain a vibrant community, either. I think a lot of the issue is that lots of people are attached to conditions that are only made possible by the willingness of investors to tolerate Reddit's lack of profitability in the expectation that that will be turned around in the future, but that that willingness is not sustainable.
        baddox 11y ago
        I suspect that reddit's goals are much more aggressive than just keeping the lights on. I do think that reddit could quite easily pay for their servers with their current level of monetization.
- johrn 11y ago
  Except that's not a fair analogy to what happens on reddit. Sure, the shouty horrible people have a corner that they hang out in, with couches and televisions and snacks. But they're also free to wander around the rest of the store shouting whatever they want. They hang out by the front door with the greeters even! Up until now, Costco hasn't cared that they're providing a comfy space for these loudmouthed assholes to congregate. You can't just not go to the corner if you want to avoid them, you have to avoid all the parts of the store that they are shouting in.
SwellJoe 11y ago
It is literally impossible to visit reddit regularly without seeing casual racism, sexism, able-ism, etc. "Some leakage" is actually a steady stream of hate into every subreddit at one time or another. Some subs are better than others, but mostly the good ones (science, AMA, for example) are already heavily moderated...they won't change because the racist trolls are already being silenced in those subs. If you don't find reddit obnoxiously bigoted as it currently is, it is because you are predominantly visiting subs that already have stricter content policies than any reddit is likely to impose site-wide. And, I will note that we're all talking on HN which has always had relatively strict guidelines and heavy-ish moderation (compared to most of reddit). If anyone hates moderation and a strict set of content guidelines, you're in the wrong place, because HN is stricter and has more active/aggressive moderation than reddit will ever have site-wide.
- baddox 11y ago
  > It is literally impossible to visit reddit regularly without seeing casual racism, sexism, able-ism, etc. Sure. It's also literally impossible for reddit to perfectly prevent all such content from being posted, so I don't see this as a particularly strong argument. > If you don't find reddit obnoxiously bigoted as it currently is, it is because you are predominantly visiting subs that already have stricter content policies than any reddit is likely to impose site-wide. Not necessarily. I subscribe mostly to very small subreddits that only attract people who actively go looking for a subreddit dedicated to the topic. They're not a target for trolls until they get larger, and by then I've usually moved on. > If anyone hates moderation and a strict set of content guidelines, you're in the wrong place, because HN is stricter and has more active/aggressive moderation than reddit will ever have site-wide. I actually do dislike ("hate" is too strong) the strict moderation of HN, but it's not all or nothing. I still think HN is a great community with good content and discussion. HN is also different than reddit, because it's more like a single subreddit. Reddit is a host for subreddits, which can have their own moderators who are not affiliated with reddit the corporation.
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    "It's also literally impossible for reddit to perfectly prevent all such content from being posted, so I don't see this as a particularly strong argument." I certainly don't see how this is an argument that they shouldn't bloody well try to prevent such content from being posted on their platform. I can't prevent all spam from hitting my inbox, but you can sure as hell bet that I've got SpamAssassin, greylisting, etc. running on my server.

by baddox 11y ago

sharkweek 11y ago

Fair - let's make it a little room in the back where someone might accidentally stumble. Especially when Gawker posts a story talking specifically about it sending people to that dark corner making them think THAT is what Costco is all about. Terrible impression to make on new customers, thus Costco decides, eh, fuck it, let's just get rid of the little room entirely to avoid this repetitious problem.

baddox 11y ago
How would you accidentally stumble onto it? You might make a typo, which is a fair point, but that is probably exceedingly rare. Or you might be linked, but you can already be linked anywhere from anywhere else on the web, so that's hardly a meaningful argument.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Or you might be linked, but you can already be linked anywhere from anywhere else on the web, so that's hardly a meaningful argument. Its a meaningful argument from the POV of Reddit management, and their effort to build a profitable business, given that what people can be linked to that is tied to Reddit -- unlike what people can be linked to that is not tied to Reddit -- impacts the perception of Reddit and both the audience it attracts and its attractiveness to advertisers.
  - baddox 11y ago
    > Its a meaningful argument from the POV of Reddit management, and their effort to build a profitable business Oh absolutely. I'm not disputing that. Of course they are doing all of this in pursuit of profit (or at least in pursuit of pleasing their board). The trouble is that, in my view, there is a conflict between the goal of pleasing the reddit board and the goal of creating a vibrant community.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > The trouble is that, in my view, there is a conflict between the goal of pleasing the reddit board and the goal of creating a vibrant community. If you can't run a business that brings in the money to keep the lights on, you can't maintain a vibrant community, either. I think a lot of the issue is that lots of people are attached to conditions that are only made possible by the willingness of investors to tolerate Reddit's lack of profitability in the expectation that that will be turned around in the future, but that that willingness is not sustainable.
      - baddox 11y ago
        I suspect that reddit's goals are much more aggressive than just keeping the lights on. I do think that reddit could quite easily pay for their servers with their current level of monetization.
johrn 11y ago
Except that's not a fair analogy to what happens on reddit. Sure, the shouty horrible people have a corner that they hang out in, with couches and televisions and snacks. But they're also free to wander around the rest of the store shouting whatever they want. They hang out by the front door with the greeters even! Up until now, Costco hasn't cared that they're providing a comfy space for these loudmouthed assholes to congregate. You can't just not go to the corner if you want to avoid them, you have to avoid all the parts of the store that they are shouting in.

SwellJoe 11y ago

It is literally impossible to visit reddit regularly without seeing casual racism, sexism, able-ism, etc. "Some leakage" is actually a steady stream of hate into every subreddit at one time or another. Some subs are better than others, but mostly the good ones (science, AMA, for example) are already heavily moderated...they won't change because the racist trolls are already being silenced in those subs. If you don't find reddit obnoxiously bigoted as it currently is, it is because you are predominantly visiting subs that already have stricter content policies than any reddit is likely to impose site-wide. And, I will note that we're all talking on HN which has always had relatively strict guidelines and heavy-ish moderation (compared to most of reddit). If anyone hates moderation and a strict set of content guidelines, you're in the wrong place, because HN is stricter and has more active/aggressive moderation than reddit will ever have site-wide.

baddox 11y ago
> It is literally impossible to visit reddit regularly without seeing casual racism, sexism, able-ism, etc. Sure. It's also literally impossible for reddit to perfectly prevent all such content from being posted, so I don't see this as a particularly strong argument. > If you don't find reddit obnoxiously bigoted as it currently is, it is because you are predominantly visiting subs that already have stricter content policies than any reddit is likely to impose site-wide. Not necessarily. I subscribe mostly to very small subreddits that only attract people who actively go looking for a subreddit dedicated to the topic. They're not a target for trolls until they get larger, and by then I've usually moved on. > If anyone hates moderation and a strict set of content guidelines, you're in the wrong place, because HN is stricter and has more active/aggressive moderation than reddit will ever have site-wide. I actually do dislike ("hate" is too strong) the strict moderation of HN, but it's not all or nothing. I still think HN is a great community with good content and discussion. HN is also different than reddit, because it's more like a single subreddit. Reddit is a host for subreddits, which can have their own moderators who are not affiliated with reddit the corporation.
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  "It's also literally impossible for reddit to perfectly prevent all such content from being posted, so I don't see this as a particularly strong argument." I certainly don't see how this is an argument that they shouldn't bloody well try to prevent such content from being posted on their platform. I can't prevent all spam from hitting my inbox, but you can sure as hell bet that I've got SpamAssassin, greylisting, etc. running on my server.