11 ms·

Jopwell (YC S15) Is Building the Missing “Pipeline” of Diverse Candidates

94 points by frankdenbow 11y ago

ipsin 11y ago
"Job seekers, who must have a college degree in any discipline..." I think it's a mistake to ignore candidates with a proven track record but no college degree.
- ryanswilliams 11y ago
  I'm Ryan, co-founder of Jopwell. There are many different points along the spectrum where problems relating to diversity can be tackled; we're specifically focused on the collegiate and post-collegiate employment puzzle. This is simply a reflection of our initial target market and the immediate hiring interests/needs of our partner companies.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    >This is simply a reflection of our initial target market and the immediate hiring interests/needs of our partner companies. I think Ipsin was saying that some people without a college degree do meet the interests and needs of many companies. I'm not sure who your partner companies are or what your target market is though.
    - ryanswilliams 11y ago
      To clarify, I'm suggesting that we need to walk before we can run. I absolutely agree that many individuals without a degree far surpass companies' hiring needs, but our initial focus is entirely on providing a diverse pipeline of talented candidates who fit the criteria our partners are seeking. As we continue to demonstrate this value, it would be exciting to find ourselves in a position to influence the traditional pipelines that companies turn to for talent.
  - d4rkph1b3r 11y ago
    I would love to hear what company you think someone would want to work for that absolutely excludes anyone without a college degree?
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    > we're specifically focused on the collegiate and post-collegiate employment puzzle. This is simply a reflection of our initial target market and the immediate hiring interests/needs of our partner companies. Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you're excluding candidates without a degree, your solution isn't a solution at all. Stripping candidates names from resumes would accomplish the goal you're attempting to solve without creating the massive blindspot of candidates without a degree.
    - nedwin 11y ago
      It's hard to boil the ocean. I think this makes sense for the first release (they're fresh out of YC after all). Kind of like how TripleByte are focusing on those who can work in SF and recruiting specifically for YC companies.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Let's set aside the college degree requirement then. Can they succeed if their entire business is based on the idea of actively discriminating against a certain race of people (despite the arguments that its reverse discrimination)? That question isn't rhetorical; I'm not an employment/labor attorney, so I don't know.
        NateLawson 11y ago
        Their business is not in hiring, they are a talent agent. Candidates can choose to list themselves with Jopwell or not, and there is no exclusivity so they can list themselves multiple places. It is just an additional source of people for the customer, which is the companies themselves that make hiring decisions.
  - k0 11y ago
    No, it is an arbitrary decision and much like the race decision is not fully baked. This decision would rule out many Hackers including, at one time, Zuck, Gates, etc. I can see you have little domain knowledge/experience and are too comfortable in the HR space. I look forward to reading about future lawsuits.
  - justizin 11y ago
    > This is simply a reflection of our initial target market and the immediate hiring interests/needs of our partner companies. Hiya Ryan! I applaud what you're doing, but I join others in my concern that you are narrowing focus. I don't want to work in an office surrounded by only other straight white males, but as a person not fortunate enough to have a college degree, I really don't enjoy working in an environment where _everyone_ is a college graduate, feel it can be toxic, creates institutional bias against unconventional thinking, and is overall IMNSHO boring. That said, you have to pick what problem to tackle, and if workplaces become more diverse overall, esp in leadership positions, I think that's a great move in the right direction. There may be a bias in favor of people that demographically resemble me and haven't gone to college, because we had access to family members and other people with engineering backgrounds, even if that leg-up doesn't guarantee a slam-dunk.
    - ryanswilliams 11y ago
      Hey there - we appreciate you expressing your concern. This is absolutely something we're keenly aware of. By restricting our initial target user base, we're putting ourselves in a position to do this one thing REALLY well. We want to one day do much more than that (i.e. we believe as strongly as you do that a college education, or lack thereof, is NOT a signal of one's professional value or ability to contribute). We're humbled by the possibility that we can influence the funnels that companies turn to to hire; this is step one.
      - justizin 11y ago
        I hear that, and I heard it from your first post as well - just wanted to share my perspective. There are invisible diversity challenges, and economics is one. Yes, if I don't stutter, and I clean up, and pretend not to be a loudmouth political radical, I can waltz into the Ol' boys club, but my welcome wears out real damn fast. ;) I think what I was really getting at was that, as in _all_ hiring and recruiting situations, and basically even all consulting situations, you have to keep "what your client wants" and "what your client needs" separate, because you're not selling the first one unless it matches the second, if you're doing well. ;) I also have a concern about people creating companies that have good ethnic and gender diversity numbers, but which are even _more_ against hiring people without college degrees. I'm not sure this is well founded, because people who are first or second generation college grads are likely to have some of the perspective I have, and understand that their piece of paper is a piece of paper, etc.. Sometimes, when I'm talking about this, it boils down to a chat I had with a manager at Rackspace, years ago. Everyone else on the team wanted to throw away all the resumes without college degrees, and I wanted to throw away all the resumes WITH college degrees. I was like, "We need more of me!". And my boss, a really nice guy I still respect today even though we mounted a horrible coup against him, basically said to me: "Justin, they're not all you." There's some truth to that, but I wonder if people tugging at racial and gender diversity get that as well. "You're one of us, you're not like the ones you think you're like. Be happy you're here, kid." Anyway, I'm excited at what you guys are doing and hope it has an influence! If you succeed at this, you could actually position yourself to be a strong player for recruiting folks from economically diverse backgrounds as well, because our resumes just don't make sense to people, and someone sometimes needs to snap their fingers in front of a manager's face and be like: "HEY! You can't fill this position. This person has already done this work. What are you hung up on?" A rich kid can get away with spending a year backpacking in Europe at 20, but a poor kid who takes a couple years off from 24-26 because they've been working since 14, well, obviously a bum. Anyway, I appreciate you all engaging here on HN and I'm looking forward to seeing you succeed. Maybe I'll reach out when we have hiring needs. :)
  - leereeves 11y ago
    Do college educated people of color with tech skills currently have trouble finding work in the industry, or is the problem that there simply aren't enough people like that? You may be addressing the wrong problem.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > Do college educated people of color with tech skills currently have trouble finding work in the industry, Compared to similarly-educated, similary-skilled white people, my impression is, on average, yes. (Where "people of color" is taken to mean "from groups underrepresented in technology"; there are certain non-white groups for which I don't get the impression that this is the case.) Largely because of network factors. > or is the problem that there simply aren't enough people like that? That's also a problem. The two are not mutually exclusive.
      - leereeves 11y ago
        > Compared to similarly-educated, similary-skilled white people, my impression is, on average, yes. Is that based on personal experience, data, or ?
        dragonwriter 11y ago
        Its an impression based on personal experience, immediate-circle anecdotes, and other non-structured, potentially non-representative data, as well as various bits of more structured research I've seen that is not directly on point (e.g., not tech-specific, but general to hiring, such as on responses to ethnic names in hiring processes) but seems to suggestive in the absence of more specific, field-specific research.
      - ryanswilliams 11y ago
        This is absolutely right. While there are unquestionably fewer black, hispanic / latino, and native american individuals with STEM backgrounds (another problem that needs to be solved at an educational level) there is still an uphill battle to be climbed even for individuals who DO possess the necessary skills and experience. Hiring systems, especially in tech, are largely based on referral models and the "who do you know who can do X?" approach. Despite the many benefits of this approach, one danger is that it often inadvertently leaves underrepresented ethnic groups on the sidelines. Having the skill set is not always enough.
  - icelancer 11y ago
    Have you considered that excluding non-graduates is inherently non-diverse from a racial perspective [0], much less an egalitarian one? [0] http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/race-gap-narrows-in-college-enrollment-but-not-in-graduation/ http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/race-gap-narrows-in-coll...
- ryanswilliams 11y ago
  To bump my response to this (it's at risk of being lost in the chain below): To clarify, I'm suggesting that we need to walk before we can run. I absolutely agree that many individuals without a degree far surpass companies' hiring needs, but our initial focus is entirely on providing a diverse pipeline of talented candidates who fit the criteria our partners are currently seeking. As we continue to demonstrate this value, I HOPE we find ourselves in a position to influence the traditional pipelines that companies turn to for talent.
- alexnking 11y ago
  Agreed. This feels like adding an additional hurdle that non-minority hires would not face (most generic recruiting sites I've seen don't require degrees).
pbraswell 11y ago
Porter Braswell, CEO of Jopwell here. Really excited to be connecting minorities with job opportunities in tech and other industries. Lots of work to be done but our team is eager to help make the workforce a bit more colorful! Happy to be a part of this discussion.
- daniel_levine 11y ago
  Good luck Porter, been awhile since Trumbull. Glad to see you're out here
  - pbraswell 11y ago
    Appreciate it!
- apoverton 11y ago
  Good luck guys! Think this is a step in the right direction.
- ivankirigin 11y ago
  Great to see more on the pipeline side of things! What would you recommend for companies interested in doing better here? If there is institutional bias (and I think there is, if not overt), then under represented people on average will have less experience. I've been thinking companies focusing more on training and development could help offset this issue. My startup is really small and lacks resources to develop something comprehensive here. Any thoughts or recommendations? edit: let me give an example. I'm using Hired.com for recruiting. I've noticed some people have a coding bootcamp + internship vs others that have CS degrees and more experience. The latter will be better prepared to take on the challenges as a software engineer at most startups. I haven't done a comprehensive study, but it seems like there are more women in the former.
  - justizin 11y ago
    > The latter will be better prepared to take on the challenges as a software engineer at most startups. Are you sure? As a non-CS degree holding senior engineer who constantly has to tell recent grads very basic things that I taught myself in high school, I think this is the biggest and most problematic institutional bias. It's essentially cutting people out of the industry at like 14 years old - an age at which it was explained to me that I wouldn't be able to afford college and would otherwise not get in without nearly perfect grades in classes that didn't stimulate me at all.
iandanforth 11y ago
Forgive my ignorance but is it legal to hire someone and say that a major component of their hiring was their race? I'm guessing it must be OK for some predifined races?
- pbraswell 11y ago
  Our partner companies are not hiring Jopwell users because of their race, they are using Jopwell as a tool to ensure they have a diverse pool of candidates applying for their roles. They then hire the best candidate, regardless of race, for the job.
  - jerf 11y ago
    When that logic is run in the other direction, the courts smack it down. "We weren't discriminating against race, we just happened to use $CRITERION that effectively discriminated against race." Does it really change its force if it's discriminating "for"? To concretize the discussion, I suppose I'll stick to the legal aspects here, in that, yes, let's not mince words or pretend otherwise, there is certainly a direction of "discrimination" that courts will prefer, but are you really sure you can be this blatant about it, legally? It is possible to get in trouble for going too far, for instance see http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/22/justice/scotus-michigan-affirmative-action/ http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/22/justice/scotus-michigan-affirm... . (Which I freely acknowledge is not directly related to this business model, but it does show that the courts do have some degree of limits on "affirmative action".) Edit: To further clarify, I assume you have considered this question, and I'm curious what the answer you already have must be. I am not thinking this is a new thought to you.
    - _pius 11y ago
      When that logic is run in the other direction, the courts smack it down. "We weren't discriminating against race, we just happened to use $CRITERION that effectively discriminated against race." Does it really change its force if it's discriminating "for"? Utter strawman. The pool of applicants for any given job is largely a function of the people who've already been hired. This startup is providing a tool for counteracting that selection bias. It isn't "discrimination" to strive for the broadest possible pool of qualified candidates.
dmitrygr 11y ago
As a person who grew up in a place where discrimination based on gender/age/race was not really a thing, this strikes me as insane! This really does feel like discrimination, just in the opposite direction. Is it some sort of a conspiracy here to not discuss this that I am not aware of? Or is discrimination towards some OK but not towards others?
- dmitrygr 11y ago
  HOLY HELL: The website, LITERALLY, says: At this time, our platform is only open to individuals who identify as Black, Hispanic/Latino, and Native American. I wonder if I could sue because I am now being discriminated against? Funnier yet, they make you pick gender between "male" and "female"....no other options... And further... The birth year selection box only goes down to 1950, so nobody over a certain age either... Very diverse, guys....
  - frankdenbow 11y ago
    "As a person who grew up in a place where discrimination based on gender/age/race was not really a thing, this strikes me as insane!" It would behoove you to first try to empathize with those who did live in these kinds of places & learn about the history of education & discrimination in America. Then you may have some better perspective on why there are systemic reasons for why the diversity numbers for technology companies is so low (and maybe you would get an idea of why thats even important).
    - dmitrygr 11y ago
      "history" == "past" how can you ever move on if you keep dragging it up? Hire the best. Simple. Efficient. Legal. This company's operation is probably illegal (see parent post where i listed examples of how they discriminate)
      - frankdenbow 11y ago
        Past gives context as to why the present is as it is. Agree that its not something to dwell on. Also, agree with you about hiring the best. One of the issues this startup (I presume) is hoping to solve is to help source great candidates that may not be as well aware of their options in startups or are outside the typical silicon valley friends of friends networks that much of the hiring goes through. There are other issues like giving students the affordance of entering into the technology world (which is why I am on the board of a computer science high school) that Jopwell and others will try to aid in as well.
k0 11y ago
Ryan, do you think it is possible that by not allowing all candidates access, regardless of race, gender, education, age is opening up your clients to potential litigation? If you publish a list of your clients, do you think that someone could apply at those companies but be rejected because your company would not allow the applicant to be a part of your system or allege that they were not hired directly because your client used your service exclusively? Can I still apply if I am 1/2, 1/4, or 1/32 Native American? Wouldn't it be better to allow the client to sort by race (that just sounds crazy) including white? Wouldn't a photo of the candidate serve the same purpose? What happens in the near future when White is a minority in the US? It's okay to have a lapse in judgment, but IMHO you folks are literally in a gray area. I sincerely wish you the best and hope you gain clarity. Hiring from a club that excludes one or more races is bad juju. I could not recommend this approach/your company to any of my clients.
- happyscrappy 11y ago
  This appears to be an add on service to compliment your existing hiring, specifically to increase diversity.
- NateLawson 11y ago
  This is a terrible, terrible comment. These guys are a recruiting service, and do not make hiring decisions. Companies can continue to source candidates from wherever they want -- local high school, boat docks, Facebook, friends and family, whatever. Discrimination would theoretically happen if Facebook chose to ONLY source from Jopwell and ignore all resumes from anywhere else. Since that's not going to happen in any universe, please keep the pearl-clutching to yourself.
  - reader5000 11y ago
    An explicitly racially discriminatory recruiting firm is, as far as I can tell, a legal novelty. For example, I am of Hmong origin, which means my submitted resume would be ignored purely based on my race according to the stated "acceptable ethnic groups" on the website. It may have some sort of precedent/protection in US affirmative action doctrine, but I'm not so sure a lawsuit would be immediately dismissed. Anybody with more US anti-discrimination law knowledge feel free to add in.
gesman 11y ago
Are there any russians among employees? :)
yowhatupguy69 11y ago
Can you explain why you have a completely un-diverse team? http://www.jopwell.com/team http://www.jopwell.com/team
- viiralvx 11y ago
  You know, I prefer seeing an "un-diverse" team of underrepresented groups rather than the traditional "un-diverse" team of the classic Silicon Valley all white and male team. You really aren't adding any value to the conversation with your comment.
  - yowhatupguy69 11y ago
    The conversation is stupid, racist and possibly illegal
  - 9392732 11y ago
    Do you think that there should be less Asian people in tech since they are over represented? Less Jewish people?
- k0 11y ago
  Why downvote him for asking a totally legitimate question? I cannot infer that they lack diversity based on a sample of 5, though they do appear to be very similar... Which makes sense as they are obviously a small startup and likely have plans to hire a more diverse team as they grow. How many startups are started by a couple of white guys who then hire other people that happen to be white or partially white because those are the qualified candidates that are nearby/referred by other white friends/colleagues/sites? The whole issue is artificial and ignorant: Hire other races to meet a contrived quota even though these companies are not setting out to not hire other races on purpose. At Google/FB/MS/Twitter a good portion of the workforce is Indian and Asian...but that's not diverse enough as, paraphrasing from the article: "all Black workers at those companies combined could fit in a Jumbo Jet". How many Black workers are being denied jobs at those companies because of their race? Why aren't the Black applicants filing anti-discrimination lawsuits against these companies? If there are repeated discrimination issues at these companies then the company is or might be perceived as racist. Racism and Discrimination cannot be inferred solely based on the number of ,or ratio of, white employees vs all other races or vs one other race. If the same company moved to Africa, India, or Asia and mostly hired white people would that seem racist and unfair or would that be nearly impossible in those areas?
k0 11y ago
I get it now! See for yourself at the Founder's LinkedIn pages [or the Jopwell Team page]. You have two outstanding young men with some great work experience but whom also have extraordinarily white-sounding names yet are not white. My question about just using pictures is now proven to be a potential solution. I'm sure some code that infers the race of a candidate from a digital photo could be used and may be a potential patent. Edit: Adding that self-identifying race on a candidate's profile may not be optimal when US anti-discrimination hiring laws are in effect. However, a picture is worth a thousand words. If you are shallow enough to hire from a pool that excludes one or more races, then you are also shallow enough to hire a candidate based on their photograph. I understand that some companies are not diverse enough, but there are root causes that Jopwell is not addressing. One cause is America has deep Anglo-Saxon and European roots hence the majority of the population is/was White; the opposite issue may be present in Africa, India, or China where 'whites' are minorities. However, choosing candidates from a racially-segregated pool for the appearance of being diverse seems so shallow. Allowing all candidates, regardless of race, and simply including a photo of a candidate absolves Jopwell on several fronts. I'm fine with the downvotes, even if I do not understand why. These are valid points.
9392732 11y ago
For anyone that is concerned about these sorts of services the answer is simple - self identify as a mix of diverse backgrounds. There is no way to prove that you are not 1/8th Black, 1/8th Asian, 1/4 Native American and the rest hispanic.
gfodor 11y ago
Serious question: is this legal?
potlick 11y ago
Reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0hBfx5ccY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0hBfx5ccY
orthoganol 11y ago
Isn't there a fear that candidates will be worried about being thought of as the "Jopwell guy"? Seems inevitable if Jopwell is thought of as the place you go to add minorities for your team, e.g. some individuals will think of them as affirmative action candidates, and the candidates themselves will be afraid of being thought that way. I suppose it's not an issue if the strategy is to be an invisible intermediary, so people wouldn't where they came from.
- ryanswilliams 11y ago
  Great question - thanks for posing it! Just how someone identified via LinkedIn, indeed, or Monster would not be branded as a "Company-x guy", Jopwell candidates have not been labeled negatively as a result of being on the platform. Jopwell is simply the resource through which these individuals are finding out about opportunities they might have otherwise been unaware of. As a reminder, these individuals are not hired BECAUSE they are on Jopwell - Jopwell is simply a tool that helps companies ensure that they are considering an applicant pool of individuals from varied backgrounds. From a user perspective, Jopwell helps individuals learn about companies and jobs and hopefully (if they are the BEST person for the job) attain employment. Hope that helps to clarify!
asdfgtyuiohj 11y ago
There are far too many East Asian and South Asian people in Silicon Valley - far more than the US average. They should be displaced first.
forthwall 11y ago
It might better to clarify what type of minority your service is looking for on the first page of your sign-up rather than your second - especially since you put in your contact details in the first (and don't really know if that information is already submitted). Was going to ask about legality too, but it seems like it was already answered. +Nice job guys, I like the idea.
- ryanswilliams 11y ago
  Appreciate the feedback! We'll definitely consider this - we don't want any confusion about who our site currently serves. Tks for the input.
bradsiegler 11y ago
People will exhaust themselves trying to scrape together thin, crap arguments attempting to minimize what you're doing. Just keep pushing. I love the mission and can't wait to see you grow!

94 points by frankdenbow 11y ago

ipsin 11y ago

"Job seekers, who must have a college degree in any discipline..." I think it's a mistake to ignore candidates with a proven track record but no college degree.

ryanswilliams 11y ago
I'm Ryan, co-founder of Jopwell. There are many different points along the spectrum where problems relating to diversity can be tackled; we're specifically focused on the collegiate and post-collegiate employment puzzle. This is simply a reflection of our initial target market and the immediate hiring interests/needs of our partner companies.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  >This is simply a reflection of our initial target market and the immediate hiring interests/needs of our partner companies. I think Ipsin was saying that some people without a college degree do meet the interests and needs of many companies. I'm not sure who your partner companies are or what your target market is though.
  - ryanswilliams 11y ago
    To clarify, I'm suggesting that we need to walk before we can run. I absolutely agree that many individuals without a degree far surpass companies' hiring needs, but our initial focus is entirely on providing a diverse pipeline of talented candidates who fit the criteria our partners are seeking. As we continue to demonstrate this value, it would be exciting to find ourselves in a position to influence the traditional pipelines that companies turn to for talent.
- d4rkph1b3r 11y ago
  I would love to hear what company you think someone would want to work for that absolutely excludes anyone without a college degree?
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  > we're specifically focused on the collegiate and post-collegiate employment puzzle. This is simply a reflection of our initial target market and the immediate hiring interests/needs of our partner companies. Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you're excluding candidates without a degree, your solution isn't a solution at all. Stripping candidates names from resumes would accomplish the goal you're attempting to solve without creating the massive blindspot of candidates without a degree.
  - nedwin 11y ago
    It's hard to boil the ocean. I think this makes sense for the first release (they're fresh out of YC after all). Kind of like how TripleByte are focusing on those who can work in SF and recruiting specifically for YC companies.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      Let's set aside the college degree requirement then. Can they succeed if their entire business is based on the idea of actively discriminating against a certain race of people (despite the arguments that its reverse discrimination)? That question isn't rhetorical; I'm not an employment/labor attorney, so I don't know.
      - NateLawson 11y ago
        Their business is not in hiring, they are a talent agent. Candidates can choose to list themselves with Jopwell or not, and there is no exclusivity so they can list themselves multiple places. It is just an additional source of people for the customer, which is the companies themselves that make hiring decisions.
- k0 11y ago
  No, it is an arbitrary decision and much like the race decision is not fully baked. This decision would rule out many Hackers including, at one time, Zuck, Gates, etc. I can see you have little domain knowledge/experience and are too comfortable in the HR space. I look forward to reading about future lawsuits.
- justizin 11y ago
  > This is simply a reflection of our initial target market and the immediate hiring interests/needs of our partner companies. Hiya Ryan! I applaud what you're doing, but I join others in my concern that you are narrowing focus. I don't want to work in an office surrounded by only other straight white males, but as a person not fortunate enough to have a college degree, I really don't enjoy working in an environment where _everyone_ is a college graduate, feel it can be toxic, creates institutional bias against unconventional thinking, and is overall IMNSHO boring. That said, you have to pick what problem to tackle, and if workplaces become more diverse overall, esp in leadership positions, I think that's a great move in the right direction. There may be a bias in favor of people that demographically resemble me and haven't gone to college, because we had access to family members and other people with engineering backgrounds, even if that leg-up doesn't guarantee a slam-dunk.
  - ryanswilliams 11y ago
    Hey there - we appreciate you expressing your concern. This is absolutely something we're keenly aware of. By restricting our initial target user base, we're putting ourselves in a position to do this one thing REALLY well. We want to one day do much more than that (i.e. we believe as strongly as you do that a college education, or lack thereof, is NOT a signal of one's professional value or ability to contribute). We're humbled by the possibility that we can influence the funnels that companies turn to to hire; this is step one.
    - justizin 11y ago
      I hear that, and I heard it from your first post as well - just wanted to share my perspective. There are invisible diversity challenges, and economics is one. Yes, if I don't stutter, and I clean up, and pretend not to be a loudmouth political radical, I can waltz into the Ol' boys club, but my welcome wears out real damn fast. ;) I think what I was really getting at was that, as in _all_ hiring and recruiting situations, and basically even all consulting situations, you have to keep "what your client wants" and "what your client needs" separate, because you're not selling the first one unless it matches the second, if you're doing well. ;) I also have a concern about people creating companies that have good ethnic and gender diversity numbers, but which are even _more_ against hiring people without college degrees. I'm not sure this is well founded, because people who are first or second generation college grads are likely to have some of the perspective I have, and understand that their piece of paper is a piece of paper, etc.. Sometimes, when I'm talking about this, it boils down to a chat I had with a manager at Rackspace, years ago. Everyone else on the team wanted to throw away all the resumes without college degrees, and I wanted to throw away all the resumes WITH college degrees. I was like, "We need more of me!". And my boss, a really nice guy I still respect today even though we mounted a horrible coup against him, basically said to me: "Justin, they're not all you." There's some truth to that, but I wonder if people tugging at racial and gender diversity get that as well. "You're one of us, you're not like the ones you think you're like. Be happy you're here, kid." Anyway, I'm excited at what you guys are doing and hope it has an influence! If you succeed at this, you could actually position yourself to be a strong player for recruiting folks from economically diverse backgrounds as well, because our resumes just don't make sense to people, and someone sometimes needs to snap their fingers in front of a manager's face and be like: "HEY! You can't fill this position. This person has already done this work. What are you hung up on?" A rich kid can get away with spending a year backpacking in Europe at 20, but a poor kid who takes a couple years off from 24-26 because they've been working since 14, well, obviously a bum. Anyway, I appreciate you all engaging here on HN and I'm looking forward to seeing you succeed. Maybe I'll reach out when we have hiring needs. :)
- leereeves 11y ago
  Do college educated people of color with tech skills currently have trouble finding work in the industry, or is the problem that there simply aren't enough people like that? You may be addressing the wrong problem.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Do college educated people of color with tech skills currently have trouble finding work in the industry, Compared to similarly-educated, similary-skilled white people, my impression is, on average, yes. (Where "people of color" is taken to mean "from groups underrepresented in technology"; there are certain non-white groups for which I don't get the impression that this is the case.) Largely because of network factors. > or is the problem that there simply aren't enough people like that? That's also a problem. The two are not mutually exclusive.
    - leereeves 11y ago
      > Compared to similarly-educated, similary-skilled white people, my impression is, on average, yes. Is that based on personal experience, data, or ?
      - dragonwriter 11y ago
        Its an impression based on personal experience, immediate-circle anecdotes, and other non-structured, potentially non-representative data, as well as various bits of more structured research I've seen that is not directly on point (e.g., not tech-specific, but general to hiring, such as on responses to ethnic names in hiring processes) but seems to suggestive in the absence of more specific, field-specific research.
    - ryanswilliams 11y ago
      This is absolutely right. While there are unquestionably fewer black, hispanic / latino, and native american individuals with STEM backgrounds (another problem that needs to be solved at an educational level) there is still an uphill battle to be climbed even for individuals who DO possess the necessary skills and experience. Hiring systems, especially in tech, are largely based on referral models and the "who do you know who can do X?" approach. Despite the many benefits of this approach, one danger is that it often inadvertently leaves underrepresented ethnic groups on the sidelines. Having the skill set is not always enough.
- icelancer 11y ago
  Have you considered that excluding non-graduates is inherently non-diverse from a racial perspective [0], much less an egalitarian one? [0] http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/race-gap-narrows-in-college-enrollment-but-not-in-graduation/ http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/race-gap-narrows-in-coll...
ryanswilliams 11y ago
To bump my response to this (it's at risk of being lost in the chain below): To clarify, I'm suggesting that we need to walk before we can run. I absolutely agree that many individuals without a degree far surpass companies' hiring needs, but our initial focus is entirely on providing a diverse pipeline of talented candidates who fit the criteria our partners are currently seeking. As we continue to demonstrate this value, I HOPE we find ourselves in a position to influence the traditional pipelines that companies turn to for talent.
alexnking 11y ago
Agreed. This feels like adding an additional hurdle that non-minority hires would not face (most generic recruiting sites I've seen don't require degrees).

pbraswell 11y ago

Porter Braswell, CEO of Jopwell here. Really excited to be connecting minorities with job opportunities in tech and other industries. Lots of work to be done but our team is eager to help make the workforce a bit more colorful! Happy to be a part of this discussion.

daniel_levine 11y ago
Good luck Porter, been awhile since Trumbull. Glad to see you're out here
- pbraswell 11y ago
  Appreciate it!
apoverton 11y ago
Good luck guys! Think this is a step in the right direction.
ivankirigin 11y ago
Great to see more on the pipeline side of things! What would you recommend for companies interested in doing better here? If there is institutional bias (and I think there is, if not overt), then under represented people on average will have less experience. I've been thinking companies focusing more on training and development could help offset this issue. My startup is really small and lacks resources to develop something comprehensive here. Any thoughts or recommendations? edit: let me give an example. I'm using Hired.com for recruiting. I've noticed some people have a coding bootcamp + internship vs others that have CS degrees and more experience. The latter will be better prepared to take on the challenges as a software engineer at most startups. I haven't done a comprehensive study, but it seems like there are more women in the former.
- justizin 11y ago
  > The latter will be better prepared to take on the challenges as a software engineer at most startups. Are you sure? As a non-CS degree holding senior engineer who constantly has to tell recent grads very basic things that I taught myself in high school, I think this is the biggest and most problematic institutional bias. It's essentially cutting people out of the industry at like 14 years old - an age at which it was explained to me that I wouldn't be able to afford college and would otherwise not get in without nearly perfect grades in classes that didn't stimulate me at all.

iandanforth 11y ago

Forgive my ignorance but is it legal to hire someone and say that a major component of their hiring was their race? I'm guessing it must be OK for some predifined races?

pbraswell 11y ago
Our partner companies are not hiring Jopwell users because of their race, they are using Jopwell as a tool to ensure they have a diverse pool of candidates applying for their roles. They then hire the best candidate, regardless of race, for the job.
- jerf 11y ago
  When that logic is run in the other direction, the courts smack it down. "We weren't discriminating against race, we just happened to use $CRITERION that effectively discriminated against race." Does it really change its force if it's discriminating "for"? To concretize the discussion, I suppose I'll stick to the legal aspects here, in that, yes, let's not mince words or pretend otherwise, there is certainly a direction of "discrimination" that courts will prefer, but are you really sure you can be this blatant about it, legally? It is possible to get in trouble for going too far, for instance see http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/22/justice/scotus-michigan-affirmative-action/ http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/22/justice/scotus-michigan-affirm... . (Which I freely acknowledge is not directly related to this business model, but it does show that the courts do have some degree of limits on "affirmative action".) Edit: To further clarify, I assume you have considered this question, and I'm curious what the answer you already have must be. I am not thinking this is a new thought to you.
  - _pius 11y ago
    When that logic is run in the other direction, the courts smack it down. "We weren't discriminating against race, we just happened to use $CRITERION that effectively discriminated against race." Does it really change its force if it's discriminating "for"? Utter strawman. The pool of applicants for any given job is largely a function of the people who've already been hired. This startup is providing a tool for counteracting that selection bias. It isn't "discrimination" to strive for the broadest possible pool of qualified candidates.

dmitrygr 11y ago

As a person who grew up in a place where discrimination based on gender/age/race was not really a thing, this strikes me as insane! This really does feel like discrimination, just in the opposite direction. Is it some sort of a conspiracy here to not discuss this that I am not aware of? Or is discrimination towards some OK but not towards others?

dmitrygr 11y ago
HOLY HELL: The website, LITERALLY, says: At this time, our platform is only open to individuals who identify as Black, Hispanic/Latino, and Native American. I wonder if I could sue because I am now being discriminated against? Funnier yet, they make you pick gender between "male" and "female"....no other options... And further... The birth year selection box only goes down to 1950, so nobody over a certain age either... Very diverse, guys....
- frankdenbow 11y ago
  "As a person who grew up in a place where discrimination based on gender/age/race was not really a thing, this strikes me as insane!" It would behoove you to first try to empathize with those who did live in these kinds of places & learn about the history of education & discrimination in America. Then you may have some better perspective on why there are systemic reasons for why the diversity numbers for technology companies is so low (and maybe you would get an idea of why thats even important).
  - dmitrygr 11y ago
    "history" == "past" how can you ever move on if you keep dragging it up? Hire the best. Simple. Efficient. Legal. This company's operation is probably illegal (see parent post where i listed examples of how they discriminate)
    - frankdenbow 11y ago
      Past gives context as to why the present is as it is. Agree that its not something to dwell on. Also, agree with you about hiring the best. One of the issues this startup (I presume) is hoping to solve is to help source great candidates that may not be as well aware of their options in startups or are outside the typical silicon valley friends of friends networks that much of the hiring goes through. There are other issues like giving students the affordance of entering into the technology world (which is why I am on the board of a computer science high school) that Jopwell and others will try to aid in as well.

k0 11y ago

Ryan, do you think it is possible that by not allowing all candidates access, regardless of race, gender, education, age is opening up your clients to potential litigation? If you publish a list of your clients, do you think that someone could apply at those companies but be rejected because your company would not allow the applicant to be a part of your system or allege that they were not hired directly because your client used your service exclusively? Can I still apply if I am 1/2, 1/4, or 1/32 Native American? Wouldn't it be better to allow the client to sort by race (that just sounds crazy) including white? Wouldn't a photo of the candidate serve the same purpose? What happens in the near future when White is a minority in the US? It's okay to have a lapse in judgment, but IMHO you folks are literally in a gray area. I sincerely wish you the best and hope you gain clarity. Hiring from a club that excludes one or more races is bad juju. I could not recommend this approach/your company to any of my clients.

happyscrappy 11y ago
This appears to be an add on service to compliment your existing hiring, specifically to increase diversity.
NateLawson 11y ago
This is a terrible, terrible comment. These guys are a recruiting service, and do not make hiring decisions. Companies can continue to source candidates from wherever they want -- local high school, boat docks, Facebook, friends and family, whatever. Discrimination would theoretically happen if Facebook chose to ONLY source from Jopwell and ignore all resumes from anywhere else. Since that's not going to happen in any universe, please keep the pearl-clutching to yourself.
- reader5000 11y ago
  An explicitly racially discriminatory recruiting firm is, as far as I can tell, a legal novelty. For example, I am of Hmong origin, which means my submitted resume would be ignored purely based on my race according to the stated "acceptable ethnic groups" on the website. It may have some sort of precedent/protection in US affirmative action doctrine, but I'm not so sure a lawsuit would be immediately dismissed. Anybody with more US anti-discrimination law knowledge feel free to add in.

gesman 11y ago

Are there any russians among employees? :)

yowhatupguy69 11y ago

Can you explain why you have a completely un-diverse team? http://www.jopwell.com/team http://www.jopwell.com/team

viiralvx 11y ago
You know, I prefer seeing an "un-diverse" team of underrepresented groups rather than the traditional "un-diverse" team of the classic Silicon Valley all white and male team. You really aren't adding any value to the conversation with your comment.
- yowhatupguy69 11y ago
  The conversation is stupid, racist and possibly illegal
- 9392732 11y ago
  Do you think that there should be less Asian people in tech since they are over represented? Less Jewish people?
k0 11y ago
Why downvote him for asking a totally legitimate question? I cannot infer that they lack diversity based on a sample of 5, though they do appear to be very similar... Which makes sense as they are obviously a small startup and likely have plans to hire a more diverse team as they grow. How many startups are started by a couple of white guys who then hire other people that happen to be white or partially white because those are the qualified candidates that are nearby/referred by other white friends/colleagues/sites? The whole issue is artificial and ignorant: Hire other races to meet a contrived quota even though these companies are not setting out to not hire other races on purpose. At Google/FB/MS/Twitter a good portion of the workforce is Indian and Asian...but that's not diverse enough as, paraphrasing from the article: "all Black workers at those companies combined could fit in a Jumbo Jet". How many Black workers are being denied jobs at those companies because of their race? Why aren't the Black applicants filing anti-discrimination lawsuits against these companies? If there are repeated discrimination issues at these companies then the company is or might be perceived as racist. Racism and Discrimination cannot be inferred solely based on the number of ,or ratio of, white employees vs all other races or vs one other race. If the same company moved to Africa, India, or Asia and mostly hired white people would that seem racist and unfair or would that be nearly impossible in those areas?

k0 11y ago

I get it now! See for yourself at the Founder's LinkedIn pages [or the Jopwell Team page]. You have two outstanding young men with some great work experience but whom also have extraordinarily white-sounding names yet are not white. My question about just using pictures is now proven to be a potential solution. I'm sure some code that infers the race of a candidate from a digital photo could be used and may be a potential patent. Edit: Adding that self-identifying race on a candidate's profile may not be optimal when US anti-discrimination hiring laws are in effect. However, a picture is worth a thousand words. If you are shallow enough to hire from a pool that excludes one or more races, then you are also shallow enough to hire a candidate based on their photograph. I understand that some companies are not diverse enough, but there are root causes that Jopwell is not addressing. One cause is America has deep Anglo-Saxon and European roots hence the majority of the population is/was White; the opposite issue may be present in Africa, India, or China where 'whites' are minorities. However, choosing candidates from a racially-segregated pool for the appearance of being diverse seems so shallow. Allowing all candidates, regardless of race, and simply including a photo of a candidate absolves Jopwell on several fronts. I'm fine with the downvotes, even if I do not understand why. These are valid points.

9392732 11y ago

For anyone that is concerned about these sorts of services the answer is simple - self identify as a mix of diverse backgrounds. There is no way to prove that you are not 1/8th Black, 1/8th Asian, 1/4 Native American and the rest hispanic.

gfodor 11y ago

Serious question: is this legal?

potlick 11y ago

Reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0hBfx5ccY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0hBfx5ccY

orthoganol 11y ago

Isn't there a fear that candidates will be worried about being thought of as the "Jopwell guy"? Seems inevitable if Jopwell is thought of as the place you go to add minorities for your team, e.g. some individuals will think of them as affirmative action candidates, and the candidates themselves will be afraid of being thought that way. I suppose it's not an issue if the strategy is to be an invisible intermediary, so people wouldn't where they came from.

ryanswilliams 11y ago
Great question - thanks for posing it! Just how someone identified via LinkedIn, indeed, or Monster would not be branded as a "Company-x guy", Jopwell candidates have not been labeled negatively as a result of being on the platform. Jopwell is simply the resource through which these individuals are finding out about opportunities they might have otherwise been unaware of. As a reminder, these individuals are not hired BECAUSE they are on Jopwell - Jopwell is simply a tool that helps companies ensure that they are considering an applicant pool of individuals from varied backgrounds. From a user perspective, Jopwell helps individuals learn about companies and jobs and hopefully (if they are the BEST person for the job) attain employment. Hope that helps to clarify!

asdfgtyuiohj 11y ago

There are far too many East Asian and South Asian people in Silicon Valley - far more than the US average. They should be displaced first.

forthwall 11y ago

It might better to clarify what type of minority your service is looking for on the first page of your sign-up rather than your second - especially since you put in your contact details in the first (and don't really know if that information is already submitted). Was going to ask about legality too, but it seems like it was already answered. +Nice job guys, I like the idea.

ryanswilliams 11y ago
Appreciate the feedback! We'll definitely consider this - we don't want any confusion about who our site currently serves. Tks for the input.

bradsiegler 11y ago

People will exhaust themselves trying to scrape together thin, crap arguments attempting to minimize what you're doing. Just keep pushing. I love the mission and can't wait to see you grow!