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>(besides Israel, obviously) Out of interest, why obviously? The unfaltering support given to Israel seems strange (to most outside of the US who I have spoken

>(besides Israel, obviously) Out of interest, why obviously? The unfaltering support given to Israel seems strange (to most outside of the US who I have spoken to). Israel has it's religious fundamentalists (just like the rest of the region). Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other countries to at least abstain from votes), has actual developed the nuclear bomb, is destabilising to the region, discusses attacking their neighbours (sorry not attacking - pre-emptive... Yet this is never questioned, nor discussed from what I can tell. They are "the good guys" so the rules are different for them.

rayiner 11y ago
> Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other countries to at least abstain from votes), Israel is our ally not because they're the "good guys" but because they share, and can help spread, our basic values about democratic government. You can have militarily aggressive democracies (e.g. the Roman Republic). Democracy is not a matter of being the "good guy" or the "bad guy" but a matter of how people relate to each other and the government.
- Udik 11y ago
  Hm. So you're saying that a state disregarding tens of UN resolutions, that is in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, that periodically massacres thousands of civilians, that faces mounting accusations of being an apartheid regime, that keeps creating civilian settlements in an occupied territory, that has secret nuclear weapons, that incarcerates people without accusation or trial - this state "shares and can help spread our basic values about democratic government". Good luck with that! You couldn't have given a better explanation for the rise of fundamentalism and terrorism in the ME.
  - Retric 11y ago
    Historically the US has done all of that. Remember, we developed nuclear weapons and are the only country that has actually used them in warfare. We have also developed and used biological and chemical weapons. Hell, for a recent example after signing a convention banning using laser weapons to blind people we got rid of our prototype laser weapons to blind people.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    Yes, Democracy has nothing to do with how a country uses its military power to further its interests, or how a country cooperates or does not within an international framework. Arguably, a country that ignores resolutions of unelected bodies like the UN in response to the popular will is more democratic, not less.
  - ReadingInBed 11y ago
    That's actually exactly why US and Israel make great allies. Both have great interest in aggressive imperialist foreign policies with little international oversight. I think the best chance of the US breaking away from Israel internationally is to change foreign policy in the US, versus specifically targeting Israel. Edit: I'd like to add that I am not trying to make value judgements here. I'm not arguing that either the US or Israel foreign policy is bad or good, just very similar.
  - bsaul 11y ago
    There's a much simpler answer to what those values are : freedom of speech, sexual orientation, and religion. They're basicaly the reason refugees go from the east to the west, and not the other way around.
- discardorama 11y ago
  > Israel is our ally ... ... because a large number of conservative Americans believe that Jesus is not going to come unless Israel is ruled by a Jewish king (or something like that; see here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?p... ) ... because a large number of donors to the Republican (and Democratic) parties are wealthy Jewish folk. And we know that in the US, money talks when it comes to policy. As a result, most politicians feel the need to pander to the hardliners in Israel: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/hillary-clinton-jewish-donors-israel-119705.html http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/hillary-clinton-jewish...
  - pdeuchler 11y ago
    Wait, are you serious? While the partition plan was ostensibly created by the UN, it was more or less completely designed and pushed through by the US. Israel, for all intents and purposes, is a US created state. Not only would the failure of Israel leave a huge black eye on US foreign policy, but Israel is also one of our most publicized allies. If we were to allow Israel to be overrun by an Arab consortium we would have zero soft power left when trying to convince states in hostile areas to side with us. We've doubled down on Israel so much in the past we've essentially backed ourselves into a corner, a corner that was tightened significantly when we lost "control" of Iran in '79. Israel is also the most heavily armed nuclear power in the middle east, and has one of the most advanced militaries in the world (although that's mostly thanks to us). That is why we continue to support Israel. I'm not saying these are good reasons, but they're at least actual reasons as opposed to the politicized tripe that's in your linked articles.
    - curiousjorge 11y ago
      is it fair to say that Israel was created as sort of a proxy to impose cold war ideology on the Middle East to counter Soviet Union cozying up and supply arms to the rest of hte middle east?
      - tome 11y ago
- selimthegrim 11y ago
  Quoth Sheldon Adelson: "So what if Israel isn't a democracy (in the future). Who cares?"
- anigbrowl 11y ago
  Really, I think they're our ally because we guarantee their security and they function as a counterbalance to other nations int he region which might more naturally align with Russia. Israel is democratic but I feel only about 10% more than Iran. I'm really not sure how well they promulgate our basic values about democracy, or to the extent that they do, whether those basic values are good ones - one could view democracy in both countries as being a figleaf for militarist expansionism, for example. I feel it's more informative to look on our relationship with Israel from a pragmatic rather than an idealist perspective. That said, both Israel and Iran have a great deal more in common with the US than a country like Saudi Arabia does. I continue to wonder how long we can thread that particular needle.
maratd 11y ago
> The unfaltering support given to Israel seems strange There's nothing strange about it. Yes, it is militarily aggressive and has to be considering the neighborhood. The support given is purely selfish as Israel is the only nation in the region which mirrors the values the US wishes to promote in the region, provides military support when needed, and a plethora of other various benefits which none of the other players in the region are able to provide. As far as the "strangeness" is concerned, with rampant antisemitism in Europe, I supposed it would look strange when that hobby isn't shared elsewhere?
- Systemic33 11y ago
  > with rampant antisemitism in Europe Because Israel isn't escalating this at all with the palestine conflict... Netanyahu is a warmongerer that keeps the conflict alive, because it serves his interests, in increasing antisemitism, resulting in jews feeling increasingly threatened, and starts to consider relocation to Israel, increasing support for Netanyahu.
  - berntb 11y ago
    Consider e.g. the Sudanese government, with systematic murders/rapes in the millions. Not to mention organized sexual slavery. Even with a Palestinian description of the Israeli govenments the Sudanese one should be at least a factor thousand worse. Note also that the Sudanese government is supported by Iran and most Arab countries. If you think antisemitism is a logical result of Israel, how should the non-muslim Africa then judge muslims...? (Yeah, I'm hellbanned. And with what I wrote here and what seems to be the political opinions of the censors I'll probably continue to be. :-) )
  - bsaul 11y ago
    Jews don't feel threatened because of netanyahu, but because of antisemites ( this word has an historical meaning, which is why i'm using it). And unfortunately, antisemitism doesn't take its root in the palestinian conflict, but in religious books ( both christian and muslims). Which are much older than Israel, and won't change no matter the number of square kilometers of the palestinian state.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
tome 11y ago
What an utter bunch of nonsense. Israel's military takes the most care to protect civilian lives of any military, probably any military ever in history. But if you want to castigate Israel for responding at all to rocket attacks on its civilians then please go ahead and do so.
dang 11y ago
Since this turned into an off-topic flamewar we've detached it from its parent and marked it off topic.

rayiner 11y ago

> Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other countries to at least abstain from votes), Israel is our ally not because they're the "good guys" but because they share, and can help spread, our basic values about democratic government. You can have militarily aggressive democracies (e.g. the Roman Republic). Democracy is not a matter of being the "good guy" or the "bad guy" but a matter of how people relate to each other and the government.

Udik 11y ago
Hm. So you're saying that a state disregarding tens of UN resolutions, that is in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, that periodically massacres thousands of civilians, that faces mounting accusations of being an apartheid regime, that keeps creating civilian settlements in an occupied territory, that has secret nuclear weapons, that incarcerates people without accusation or trial - this state "shares and can help spread our basic values about democratic government". Good luck with that! You couldn't have given a better explanation for the rise of fundamentalism and terrorism in the ME.
- Retric 11y ago
  Historically the US has done all of that. Remember, we developed nuclear weapons and are the only country that has actually used them in warfare. We have also developed and used biological and chemical weapons. Hell, for a recent example after signing a convention banning using laser weapons to blind people we got rid of our prototype laser weapons to blind people.
- rayiner 11y ago
  Yes, Democracy has nothing to do with how a country uses its military power to further its interests, or how a country cooperates or does not within an international framework. Arguably, a country that ignores resolutions of unelected bodies like the UN in response to the popular will is more democratic, not less.
- ReadingInBed 11y ago
  That's actually exactly why US and Israel make great allies. Both have great interest in aggressive imperialist foreign policies with little international oversight. I think the best chance of the US breaking away from Israel internationally is to change foreign policy in the US, versus specifically targeting Israel. Edit: I'd like to add that I am not trying to make value judgements here. I'm not arguing that either the US or Israel foreign policy is bad or good, just very similar.
- bsaul 11y ago
  There's a much simpler answer to what those values are : freedom of speech, sexual orientation, and religion. They're basicaly the reason refugees go from the east to the west, and not the other way around.
discardorama 11y ago
> Israel is our ally ... ... because a large number of conservative Americans believe that Jesus is not going to come unless Israel is ruled by a Jewish king (or something like that; see here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?p... ) ... because a large number of donors to the Republican (and Democratic) parties are wealthy Jewish folk. And we know that in the US, money talks when it comes to policy. As a result, most politicians feel the need to pander to the hardliners in Israel: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/hillary-clinton-jewish-donors-israel-119705.html http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/hillary-clinton-jewish...
- pdeuchler 11y ago
  Wait, are you serious? While the partition plan was ostensibly created by the UN, it was more or less completely designed and pushed through by the US. Israel, for all intents and purposes, is a US created state. Not only would the failure of Israel leave a huge black eye on US foreign policy, but Israel is also one of our most publicized allies. If we were to allow Israel to be overrun by an Arab consortium we would have zero soft power left when trying to convince states in hostile areas to side with us. We've doubled down on Israel so much in the past we've essentially backed ourselves into a corner, a corner that was tightened significantly when we lost "control" of Iran in '79. Israel is also the most heavily armed nuclear power in the middle east, and has one of the most advanced militaries in the world (although that's mostly thanks to us). That is why we continue to support Israel. I'm not saying these are good reasons, but they're at least actual reasons as opposed to the politicized tripe that's in your linked articles.
  - curiousjorge 11y ago
    is it fair to say that Israel was created as sort of a proxy to impose cold war ideology on the Middle East to counter Soviet Union cozying up and supply arms to the rest of hte middle east?
    - tome 11y ago
selimthegrim 11y ago
Quoth Sheldon Adelson: "So what if Israel isn't a democracy (in the future). Who cares?"
anigbrowl 11y ago
Really, I think they're our ally because we guarantee their security and they function as a counterbalance to other nations int he region which might more naturally align with Russia. Israel is democratic but I feel only about 10% more than Iran. I'm really not sure how well they promulgate our basic values about democracy, or to the extent that they do, whether those basic values are good ones - one could view democracy in both countries as being a figleaf for militarist expansionism, for example. I feel it's more informative to look on our relationship with Israel from a pragmatic rather than an idealist perspective. That said, both Israel and Iran have a great deal more in common with the US than a country like Saudi Arabia does. I continue to wonder how long we can thread that particular needle.

maratd 11y ago

> The unfaltering support given to Israel seems strange There's nothing strange about it. Yes, it is militarily aggressive and has to be considering the neighborhood. The support given is purely selfish as Israel is the only nation in the region which mirrors the values the US wishes to promote in the region, provides military support when needed, and a plethora of other various benefits which none of the other players in the region are able to provide. As far as the "strangeness" is concerned, with rampant antisemitism in Europe, I supposed it would look strange when that hobby isn't shared elsewhere?

Systemic33 11y ago
> with rampant antisemitism in Europe Because Israel isn't escalating this at all with the palestine conflict... Netanyahu is a warmongerer that keeps the conflict alive, because it serves his interests, in increasing antisemitism, resulting in jews feeling increasingly threatened, and starts to consider relocation to Israel, increasing support for Netanyahu.
- berntb 11y ago
  Consider e.g. the Sudanese government, with systematic murders/rapes in the millions. Not to mention organized sexual slavery. Even with a Palestinian description of the Israeli govenments the Sudanese one should be at least a factor thousand worse. Note also that the Sudanese government is supported by Iran and most Arab countries. If you think antisemitism is a logical result of Israel, how should the non-muslim Africa then judge muslims...? (Yeah, I'm hellbanned. And with what I wrote here and what seems to be the political opinions of the censors I'll probably continue to be. :-) )
- bsaul 11y ago
  Jews don't feel threatened because of netanyahu, but because of antisemites ( this word has an historical meaning, which is why i'm using it). And unfortunately, antisemitism doesn't take its root in the palestinian conflict, but in religious books ( both christian and muslims). Which are much older than Israel, and won't change no matter the number of square kilometers of the palestinian state.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

tome 11y ago

What an utter bunch of nonsense. Israel's military takes the most care to protect civilian lives of any military, probably any military ever in history. But if you want to castigate Israel for responding at all to rocket attacks on its civilians then please go ahead and do so.

dang 11y ago

Since this turned into an off-topic flamewar we've detached it from its parent and marked it off topic.