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> Corruption and tax evasion are an economic problem, not a moral one. Not true. The Greek state has traditionally been seen as an enemy of the citizen and som

> Corruption and tax evasion are an economic problem, not a moral one. Not true. The Greek state has traditionally been seen as an enemy of the citizen and something to take advantage of. This is due to the muchtar system established hundreds of years ago by the Osman empire, establishing clientilism. E.g. Estonia is much better on all these metrics, but income levels are similar or below Greece. > Greece did not spend other EU citizen's money They took advantage of having access to "Germany's credit card", with interest rates dropping from 25% to 5% post Drachme. Then they proceeded to consume that money. Even in 2014, the public and private consumption relative to net national income was at 114% [1], a completely unsustainable level. If Europe wasn't financing elevated standards of living for Greece before the crisis, they certainly did in the last few years. [1] http://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/publications/docbase/details.html?docId=19161354 http://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/publications/docbase/deta... > You know what hinders startups, business, and innovative people? A repressive tax regime. New York and California have comparatively high tax rates, enormous housing costs and expensive wages. They seem to be doing just fine. Also see Germany, Austria, Switzerland and all of the Scandinavian countries.

Mikeb85 11y ago
> New York and California have comparatively high tax rates, enormous housing costs and expensive wages. That's why I'm bombarded with ads that brag about NY's startup program that allows you to operate for 10 years with NO taxes? http://startup.ny.gov/ http://startup.ny.gov/ http://esd.ny.gov/BusinessPrograms/Taxes_Incentives.html http://esd.ny.gov/BusinessPrograms/Taxes_Incentives.html Anyhow, like I said - businesses and people will pay taxes if they see value - beyond NY's tax free startup program, those are the 2 most populous US states (access to labour). That is a competitive advantage. There's also easier access to financial capital - another advantage. People don't necessarily go to where the taxes are the cheapest - they go to where there's the best combination of access to labour, capital, customers, taxes, etc... (or they stay put if they think their current location is 'good enough') Think of human behaviour as a maximization curve - a constant attempt to attain maximum "utility" of our time. > E.g. Estonia is much better on all these metrics, but income levels are similar or below Greece. Estonia, business-wise, seems to have quite a few things going for it. http://www.lowtax.net/features/Estonias-Advantages-571583.html http://www.lowtax.net/features/Estonias-Advantages-571583.ht... Just reiterates what I'm saying - paying taxes is based on a number of factors, none of them morality (not on a large scale anyway). Edit - if Greece wants to collect more tax money, they need to provide a good reason for people to pay tax money. Given that the world is a big place and anyone with enough money can move quite easily, it needs to be a more compelling reason than the fear of punishment.
- MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
  > if Greece wants to collect more tax money, they need to provide a good reason for people to pay tax money I agree on this one. I would not want to give a corrupt government my money. But then again, this is due to ethics - if not the taxpayer's, then the government's. You will find the topic of corruption mentioned in the "Ethics" section in this world bank report. [1, page 11] [1] http://www1.worldbank.org/publicsector/civilservice/rsGermany.pdf http://www1.worldbank.org/publicsector/civilservice/rsGerman...
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    It was a very brief mention. Most people don't decide to pay or not pay taxes based on perception of corruption, but rather what they perceive they're receiving. In Canada, we generally are content to pay taxes because we get such benefits as free health care, cheap medicine, free primary and secondary schooling, subsidized post-secondary schooling, and our cities are generally quite clean with good infrastructure, which is a good accomplishment considering our population density is very low. My wife is from a third world country where almost no one pays taxes. Then again, what do they get? Infrastructure is non-existent (roads are all gravel or dirt, power is on about 50% of the time, no potable running water, police are non-existent, etc...). This is the conundrum of development economics - how do you go from this stage of development, to a new stage where people pay taxes so the government can provide services? With no services people will avoid taxes, with no tax money the government cannot provide services. The answer of course, is that it's difficult and takes time. Corruption is an easier problem to solve, but difficult to implement. To get civil servants to stop accepting bribes you need to pay them enough that losing their pay is actually a punishment, or punish them enough that the threat of jail time counters the benefit of accepting bribes (or ideally, a bit of both). Anyhow, neither problem can be solved in the amount of time that the troika has expected Greece to solve them - and they ARE economic problems, not moral ones.
msandford 11y ago
> New York and California have comparatively high tax rates, enormous housing costs and expensive wages. They seem to be doing just fine. Also see Germany, Austria, Switzerland and all of the Scandinavian countries. These places all have other things going for them, though. Why don't you move to a small town in Nebraska and pay all the Federal and State taxes as well as a 20% income tax, 10% property tax, 20% sales tax, etc. Oh, because you want something for your tax money? Hmmmm.

Mikeb85 11y ago

> New York and California have comparatively high tax rates, enormous housing costs and expensive wages. That's why I'm bombarded with ads that brag about NY's startup program that allows you to operate for 10 years with NO taxes? http://startup.ny.gov/ http://startup.ny.gov/ http://esd.ny.gov/BusinessPrograms/Taxes_Incentives.html http://esd.ny.gov/BusinessPrograms/Taxes_Incentives.html Anyhow, like I said - businesses and people will pay taxes if they see value - beyond NY's tax free startup program, those are the 2 most populous US states (access to labour). That is a competitive advantage. There's also easier access to financial capital - another advantage. People don't necessarily go to where the taxes are the cheapest - they go to where there's the best combination of access to labour, capital, customers, taxes, etc... (or they stay put if they think their current location is 'good enough') Think of human behaviour as a maximization curve - a constant attempt to attain maximum "utility" of our time. > E.g. Estonia is much better on all these metrics, but income levels are similar or below Greece. Estonia, business-wise, seems to have quite a few things going for it. http://www.lowtax.net/features/Estonias-Advantages-571583.html http://www.lowtax.net/features/Estonias-Advantages-571583.ht... Just reiterates what I'm saying - paying taxes is based on a number of factors, none of them morality (not on a large scale anyway). Edit - if Greece wants to collect more tax money, they need to provide a good reason for people to pay tax money. Given that the world is a big place and anyone with enough money can move quite easily, it needs to be a more compelling reason than the fear of punishment.

MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
> if Greece wants to collect more tax money, they need to provide a good reason for people to pay tax money I agree on this one. I would not want to give a corrupt government my money. But then again, this is due to ethics - if not the taxpayer's, then the government's. You will find the topic of corruption mentioned in the "Ethics" section in this world bank report. [1, page 11] [1] http://www1.worldbank.org/publicsector/civilservice/rsGermany.pdf http://www1.worldbank.org/publicsector/civilservice/rsGerman...
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  It was a very brief mention. Most people don't decide to pay or not pay taxes based on perception of corruption, but rather what they perceive they're receiving. In Canada, we generally are content to pay taxes because we get such benefits as free health care, cheap medicine, free primary and secondary schooling, subsidized post-secondary schooling, and our cities are generally quite clean with good infrastructure, which is a good accomplishment considering our population density is very low. My wife is from a third world country where almost no one pays taxes. Then again, what do they get? Infrastructure is non-existent (roads are all gravel or dirt, power is on about 50% of the time, no potable running water, police are non-existent, etc...). This is the conundrum of development economics - how do you go from this stage of development, to a new stage where people pay taxes so the government can provide services? With no services people will avoid taxes, with no tax money the government cannot provide services. The answer of course, is that it's difficult and takes time. Corruption is an easier problem to solve, but difficult to implement. To get civil servants to stop accepting bribes you need to pay them enough that losing their pay is actually a punishment, or punish them enough that the threat of jail time counters the benefit of accepting bribes (or ideally, a bit of both). Anyhow, neither problem can be solved in the amount of time that the troika has expected Greece to solve them - and they ARE economic problems, not moral ones.

msandford 11y ago

> New York and California have comparatively high tax rates, enormous housing costs and expensive wages. They seem to be doing just fine. Also see Germany, Austria, Switzerland and all of the Scandinavian countries. These places all have other things going for them, though. Why don't you move to a small town in Nebraska and pay all the Federal and State taxes as well as a 20% income tax, 10% property tax, 20% sales tax, etc. Oh, because you want something for your tax money? Hmmmm.