6 ms·

"True and honest"? Are we reading the same article? He sounds like a bitter extremist who doesn't know how to control himself in order to reach a certain goal,

by roel_v 11y ago

"True and honest"? Are we reading the same article? He sounds like a bitter extremist who doesn't know how to control himself in order to reach a certain goal, but instead like either a petulant child or an autistic person (depending on the day of the week, it seems) can only repeat 'the Greeks voted for no extra cuts yet stay in the Euro so we should get it' (no shit? and I'd like a pony) and 'my economics paper says xyz, I want you to reply to each point I made'. Uh no buddy, that's not how the world works.

andy_ppp 11y ago
You sound pretty bitter yourself. I find it strangely Kafkaesque the way each country has their own vested interests in destroying Greece. We know absolutely that they will not pay this money back (and as a price Europe is destroying their country and seizing assets, a coup of kinds). I think they should go bankrupt - and the banks will be falling over themselves to lend them money again! It's amazing that 90% of the Greek bailout money went to the Banks and that they are no longer exposed to the risks that they made, instead tax payers are. It really feels as if the banks should be made to pay for making such unstable, non repayable depts? Just a thought.
- roel_v 11y ago
  Well, if the Greeks would agree with your idea, they'd do it, don't you think? And if they'd really think they'd be better off leaving the Euro, they would, no? Instead, they are willing to accept drastic measures, and even Varoufakis has all eyes set on staying in the Euro zone, even if only in a farcical way (his 'we'll issue Euro-denominated bonds ourselves even if the ECB cuts us out' fantasy). The way I see it, they want to stay in the Euro no matter what. Everybody saying 'leave the Euro' seems to know better for them than they do?
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    The problem is that while Greece is better off leaving the Euro, individual Greeks that already have savings would be worse off if their savings were converted to drachmas. Seeing as how Syriza was elected by a populist movement, they could just as easily be deposed by the same populism, and a lot of people (especially those who are already retired or nearing retirement age) would be upset if they lost a large chunk of their savings. But yes, economically, the drachma is better for Greece. Especially for younger Greeks who have little to no savings, and wouldn't be hurt by a devaluing currency, but would stand to gain from increased employment.
Mikeb85 11y ago
Can't decide if you're more insulting to those who are autistic, to those who believe in democracy, or to those who are in academia... Yanis Varoufakis' problem is that he was playing a different game. He was trying to be an economist and do the right thing for Greece when the Eurogroup was playing politics and trying to punish Greece. They never were interested in economics or a prosperous Greece, only in maintaining the power structure across Europe.
- andy_ppp 11y ago
  Absolutely my reading of the situation too. I hear these two sides of the argument "Greece is a petulant and lazy bad state, hit them" and the one I subscribe to "let's forgive Greece, it was on the banks to lend stupid amounts of money to them".
- roel_v 11y ago
  Well I have autistic tendencies and I'm an academic; and I do believe in democracy although not so much the mob rule variety; so 'it takes one to know one' is rather apt here...
parasubvert 11y ago
I think you're missing a tremendous amount of context in this observation. Varoufakis is speaking a close approximation of the truth in this situation. The point is that the Euro as a union is an economic disaster: Capitulating to the German electorate because they're bigger/richer is not much of a union, it's hegemony. The USA doesn't let Alabama and Arkansas rot if Californians would prefer it that way, it has automatic transfers and laws in place to help its members out. Yes we are a tighter Union politically, but that's the aspiration of the EU and Euro, and they've just proven they really would prefer a regional hegemony than a group of political equals.
- roel_v 11y ago
  a) there is no 'capitulating to the German electorate'; b) the 'aspiration' of the EU is not to become a United States of Europe. I can't be bothered to go into the details, because this is EU law 101, but just the suggestion that European countries would somehow aspire to a federal model is laughable and shows 0 knowledge of the history and institutions of the EU.
  - parasubvert 11y ago
    And this is the illusion that's at the heart of The EU, that EU law can somehow contort social and economic systems to work in contradictory ways. It's a confederation - all members have given up some sovereignty. Except a badly design currency union and a hegemonic leadership out of Germany doesn't make economic sense when crises hit.
dang 11y ago
Please don't use inflammatory sarcasm when commenting on HN, especially when the topic is inflammatory to begin with.

by roel_v 11y ago

andy_ppp 11y ago

You sound pretty bitter yourself. I find it strangely Kafkaesque the way each country has their own vested interests in destroying Greece. We know absolutely that they will not pay this money back (and as a price Europe is destroying their country and seizing assets, a coup of kinds). I think they should go bankrupt - and the banks will be falling over themselves to lend them money again! It's amazing that 90% of the Greek bailout money went to the Banks and that they are no longer exposed to the risks that they made, instead tax payers are. It really feels as if the banks should be made to pay for making such unstable, non repayable depts? Just a thought.

roel_v 11y ago
Well, if the Greeks would agree with your idea, they'd do it, don't you think? And if they'd really think they'd be better off leaving the Euro, they would, no? Instead, they are willing to accept drastic measures, and even Varoufakis has all eyes set on staying in the Euro zone, even if only in a farcical way (his 'we'll issue Euro-denominated bonds ourselves even if the ECB cuts us out' fantasy). The way I see it, they want to stay in the Euro no matter what. Everybody saying 'leave the Euro' seems to know better for them than they do?
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  The problem is that while Greece is better off leaving the Euro, individual Greeks that already have savings would be worse off if their savings were converted to drachmas. Seeing as how Syriza was elected by a populist movement, they could just as easily be deposed by the same populism, and a lot of people (especially those who are already retired or nearing retirement age) would be upset if they lost a large chunk of their savings. But yes, economically, the drachma is better for Greece. Especially for younger Greeks who have little to no savings, and wouldn't be hurt by a devaluing currency, but would stand to gain from increased employment.

Mikeb85 11y ago

Can't decide if you're more insulting to those who are autistic, to those who believe in democracy, or to those who are in academia... Yanis Varoufakis' problem is that he was playing a different game. He was trying to be an economist and do the right thing for Greece when the Eurogroup was playing politics and trying to punish Greece. They never were interested in economics or a prosperous Greece, only in maintaining the power structure across Europe.

andy_ppp 11y ago
Absolutely my reading of the situation too. I hear these two sides of the argument "Greece is a petulant and lazy bad state, hit them" and the one I subscribe to "let's forgive Greece, it was on the banks to lend stupid amounts of money to them".
roel_v 11y ago
Well I have autistic tendencies and I'm an academic; and I do believe in democracy although not so much the mob rule variety; so 'it takes one to know one' is rather apt here...

parasubvert 11y ago

I think you're missing a tremendous amount of context in this observation. Varoufakis is speaking a close approximation of the truth in this situation. The point is that the Euro as a union is an economic disaster: Capitulating to the German electorate because they're bigger/richer is not much of a union, it's hegemony. The USA doesn't let Alabama and Arkansas rot if Californians would prefer it that way, it has automatic transfers and laws in place to help its members out. Yes we are a tighter Union politically, but that's the aspiration of the EU and Euro, and they've just proven they really would prefer a regional hegemony than a group of political equals.

roel_v 11y ago
a) there is no 'capitulating to the German electorate'; b) the 'aspiration' of the EU is not to become a United States of Europe. I can't be bothered to go into the details, because this is EU law 101, but just the suggestion that European countries would somehow aspire to a federal model is laughable and shows 0 knowledge of the history and institutions of the EU.
- parasubvert 11y ago
  And this is the illusion that's at the heart of The EU, that EU law can somehow contort social and economic systems to work in contradictory ways. It's a confederation - all members have given up some sovereignty. Except a badly design currency union and a hegemonic leadership out of Germany doesn't make economic sense when crises hit.

dang 11y ago

Please don't use inflammatory sarcasm when commenting on HN, especially when the topic is inflammatory to begin with.