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And this response shows that you know nothing about economics or finance. > do something again the blatant corruption, burocratie and tax evasion Corruption a

by Mikeb85 11y ago

And this response shows that you know nothing about economics or finance. > do something again the blatant corruption, burocratie and tax evasion Corruption and tax evasion are an economic problem, not a moral one. People decide whether or not to pay taxes based on many factors - convenience, value, habit, punishment, etc... In a 'developing' economy, like Greece, if there's a history of not paying taxes, you need to provide incentive to pay taxes. Because if you all of a sudden raise taxes and enforce it hard, you don't get tax evasion - you get capital flight, which is much, much worse for the economy. And it's all too easy to move around in the Eurozone. > Stoneage lefties like to discuss, well, preach, all day long while spending other (EU) citizen's money. Greece did not spend other EU citizen's money. They sold bonds at the market rate to banks and investors that BOUGHT them, and their debt spending was entirely sustainable up to the financial crisis (not sure if you've heard about it) which rocked the whole world. The troika bailed out those banks, with the vast majority of the "EU citizens' money" going to those banks and only a fraction of this money ever made its way to Greece. > instead of hindering startups, business and innovative people You know what hinders startups, business, and innovative people? A repressive tax regime. Like the one the troika imposed on Greece...

MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
> Corruption and tax evasion are an economic problem, not a moral one. Not true. The Greek state has traditionally been seen as an enemy of the citizen and something to take advantage of. This is due to the muchtar system established hundreds of years ago by the Osman empire, establishing clientilism. E.g. Estonia is much better on all these metrics, but income levels are similar or below Greece. > Greece did not spend other EU citizen's money They took advantage of having access to "Germany's credit card", with interest rates dropping from 25% to 5% post Drachme. Then they proceeded to consume that money. Even in 2014, the public and private consumption relative to net national income was at 114% [1], a completely unsustainable level. If Europe wasn't financing elevated standards of living for Greece before the crisis, they certainly did in the last few years. [1] http://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/publications/docbase/details.html?docId=19161354 http://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/publications/docbase/deta... > You know what hinders startups, business, and innovative people? A repressive tax regime. New York and California have comparatively high tax rates, enormous housing costs and expensive wages. They seem to be doing just fine. Also see Germany, Austria, Switzerland and all of the Scandinavian countries.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  > New York and California have comparatively high tax rates, enormous housing costs and expensive wages. That's why I'm bombarded with ads that brag about NY's startup program that allows you to operate for 10 years with NO taxes? http://startup.ny.gov/ http://startup.ny.gov/ http://esd.ny.gov/BusinessPrograms/Taxes_Incentives.html http://esd.ny.gov/BusinessPrograms/Taxes_Incentives.html Anyhow, like I said - businesses and people will pay taxes if they see value - beyond NY's tax free startup program, those are the 2 most populous US states (access to labour). That is a competitive advantage. There's also easier access to financial capital - another advantage. People don't necessarily go to where the taxes are the cheapest - they go to where there's the best combination of access to labour, capital, customers, taxes, etc... (or they stay put if they think their current location is 'good enough') Think of human behaviour as a maximization curve - a constant attempt to attain maximum "utility" of our time. > E.g. Estonia is much better on all these metrics, but income levels are similar or below Greece. Estonia, business-wise, seems to have quite a few things going for it. http://www.lowtax.net/features/Estonias-Advantages-571583.html http://www.lowtax.net/features/Estonias-Advantages-571583.ht... Just reiterates what I'm saying - paying taxes is based on a number of factors, none of them morality (not on a large scale anyway). Edit - if Greece wants to collect more tax money, they need to provide a good reason for people to pay tax money. Given that the world is a big place and anyone with enough money can move quite easily, it needs to be a more compelling reason than the fear of punishment.
  - MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
    > if Greece wants to collect more tax money, they need to provide a good reason for people to pay tax money I agree on this one. I would not want to give a corrupt government my money. But then again, this is due to ethics - if not the taxpayer's, then the government's. You will find the topic of corruption mentioned in the "Ethics" section in this world bank report. [1, page 11] [1] http://www1.worldbank.org/publicsector/civilservice/rsGermany.pdf http://www1.worldbank.org/publicsector/civilservice/rsGerman...
    - Mikeb85 11y ago
dang 11y ago
> you know nothing about economics or finance Please don't do that—it only makes the thread worse, and adds nothing of substance to your comment.

by Mikeb85 11y ago

MrBuddyCasino 11y ago

> Corruption and tax evasion are an economic problem, not a moral one. Not true. The Greek state has traditionally been seen as an enemy of the citizen and something to take advantage of. This is due to the muchtar system established hundreds of years ago by the Osman empire, establishing clientilism. E.g. Estonia is much better on all these metrics, but income levels are similar or below Greece. > Greece did not spend other EU citizen's money They took advantage of having access to "Germany's credit card", with interest rates dropping from 25% to 5% post Drachme. Then they proceeded to consume that money. Even in 2014, the public and private consumption relative to net national income was at 114% [1], a completely unsustainable level. If Europe wasn't financing elevated standards of living for Greece before the crisis, they certainly did in the last few years. [1] http://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/publications/docbase/details.html?docId=19161354 http://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/publications/docbase/deta... > You know what hinders startups, business, and innovative people? A repressive tax regime. New York and California have comparatively high tax rates, enormous housing costs and expensive wages. They seem to be doing just fine. Also see Germany, Austria, Switzerland and all of the Scandinavian countries.

Mikeb85 11y ago
> New York and California have comparatively high tax rates, enormous housing costs and expensive wages. That's why I'm bombarded with ads that brag about NY's startup program that allows you to operate for 10 years with NO taxes? http://startup.ny.gov/ http://startup.ny.gov/ http://esd.ny.gov/BusinessPrograms/Taxes_Incentives.html http://esd.ny.gov/BusinessPrograms/Taxes_Incentives.html Anyhow, like I said - businesses and people will pay taxes if they see value - beyond NY's tax free startup program, those are the 2 most populous US states (access to labour). That is a competitive advantage. There's also easier access to financial capital - another advantage. People don't necessarily go to where the taxes are the cheapest - they go to where there's the best combination of access to labour, capital, customers, taxes, etc... (or they stay put if they think their current location is 'good enough') Think of human behaviour as a maximization curve - a constant attempt to attain maximum "utility" of our time. > E.g. Estonia is much better on all these metrics, but income levels are similar or below Greece. Estonia, business-wise, seems to have quite a few things going for it. http://www.lowtax.net/features/Estonias-Advantages-571583.html http://www.lowtax.net/features/Estonias-Advantages-571583.ht... Just reiterates what I'm saying - paying taxes is based on a number of factors, none of them morality (not on a large scale anyway). Edit - if Greece wants to collect more tax money, they need to provide a good reason for people to pay tax money. Given that the world is a big place and anyone with enough money can move quite easily, it needs to be a more compelling reason than the fear of punishment.
- MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
  > if Greece wants to collect more tax money, they need to provide a good reason for people to pay tax money I agree on this one. I would not want to give a corrupt government my money. But then again, this is due to ethics - if not the taxpayer's, then the government's. You will find the topic of corruption mentioned in the "Ethics" section in this world bank report. [1, page 11] [1] http://www1.worldbank.org/publicsector/civilservice/rsGermany.pdf http://www1.worldbank.org/publicsector/civilservice/rsGerman...
  - Mikeb85 11y ago

dang 11y ago

> you know nothing about economics or finance Please don't do that—it only makes the thread worse, and adds nothing of substance to your comment.