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As a person that rides motorcycle avidly I'm always distressed when the most important metric of a road gets a tiny mention, when discussing those new technolog

As a person that rides motorcycle avidly I'm always distressed when the most important metric of a road gets a tiny mention, when discussing those new technologies. Traction. If it's not at least as good as current best asphalt then don't bother. Cities are already turning into motorcycle deathtraps, with all the "safety" nonsense generously painted everywhere (Which is slippery as hell, even during sunny weather)

Zuikaku 11y ago
Because motorcycles are the number one users of road? Because the enjoyment of a small proportion of users outweigh whatever environmental and economic costs of improving infrastructure?
- pvdebbe 11y ago
  Are you forgetting that two-wheelers are usually a very fuel-efficient way to travel distances? Besides, if the road markings are anything to go by, it would be terribly slippery for drivers too.
- masklinn 11y ago
  > Because motorcycles are the number one users of road? Traction issues happen on all wheeled vehicles, motorcycles are just extremely sensitive to them. A few years back I got rear-ended (at low speed) because of pretty much the issue mentioned: fully painted crosswalk in wet conditions, the car behind just slipped on it and couldn't stop, ended up in the trunk.
  - mulletbum 11y ago
    Maybe they were just a terrible driver. I live in a cold U.S. State and have never slipped on Ice and RearEnded someone. I have never been in a situation where I slid down a hill and couldn't stop, mostly because I drive like you are supposed to in the Winter. Self driving cars will invalidate the need to worry about traction as they will force themselves to adjust to conditions instead of humans choosing to drive inappropriate for current weather conditions.
    - mvid 11y ago
      Or maybe they were not, and slippery roads are a significant issue.
      - mulletbum 11y ago
        If everyone drove 1mph do you believe there would be as many car accidents from slipping? Nope. This type of event occurs because of human misjudgment.
        mvid 11y ago
        Yes, and the world would also be a safer place if people went 0 miles per hour and never left their houses, but both situations are pointlessly unrealistic. We won't see a major population of self driving cars for decades. There are perhaps a dozen live models. We have millions of human driven cars now. This is the problem we solve for, not the ideal future fantasy.
        mulletbum 11y ago
        I think you missed the point. I didn't give the 1mph example to imply that it should be the way it is. I used it to point that you are incorrect in saying "or maybe they were not." Accidents, mishaps, misjudgements, say what you will, but they are all just human error, not "acts of god." So you are incorrect to say they were anything but that, no matter how much you wish they were. We also solve for the future all the time, constantly, every day. We build solar powered devices to stop global warming and pollution. Every day we work towards a "future fantasy." It is like saying we don't need roads because we have these horses we have been riding. Why build rubber wheels when our wood carriages work just fine. Why build a smaller computer when this massive datacenter works just fine.
    - masklinn 11y ago
      > Maybe they were just a terrible driver. I live in a cold U.S. State and have never slipped on Ice This wasn't winter, there was no ice, and it was low-speed urban driving. The wet crosswalk simply had close to no traction.
- jdietrich 11y ago
  Motorcycles and bicycles have a vastly disproportionate impact on improving traffic flow. As traffic density increases, two wheelers fill the gaps left by cars, occupying effectively zero road space when traffic is completely gridlocked. Bikes also occupy very little parking space - five or six motorcycles can fit in the space of a single car. As pvdebbe points out, motorcycles can be extremely fuel efficient. A 125cc motorcycle or scooter can realistically achieve 90-100mpg. A small motorcycle is much more economical to manufacture than a small car, with about a fifth of the embodied energy. Modern bikes are equipped with catalytic converters and have sophisticated engine management, so produce very low levels of local air pollutants. Two wheeled vehicles have an essential role to play in solving our current transport problems. http://www.acem.eu/images/stories/doc/pressreleases/2011/PTW_Belgium_Study_FEBIAC_ENG.PDF http://www.acem.eu/images/stories/doc/pressreleases/2011/PTW...
  - Coding_Cat 11y ago
    Even if all of this is true and then some, it doesn't change the fact that there are very little motorbikes on the road. Switching to these types of roads, even if it were impossible to ride on for motorbikes might still be a net positive for the environment.
    - contingencies 11y ago
      Not really. In much of Asia, which is most of the world's population, two wheelers dominate. Traditionally bicycles, which was followed by motorbikes in South and Southeast Asia and electric scooters in China. There's a reason why they continue to dominate, and it's not just the cost of cars (I've regularly seen people riding bicycles worth more than many people's cars here in China) - it's because they're practical! Parking, repair, exercise, lack of traffic congestion, etc.
- notauser 11y ago
  It is a problem for cycles too - at least road bikes with thin tires. I found these figures for road bike theoretical max cornering speeds - road bike with Continental GP4000 700x213c tires, rider weight of 180 lbs., tire pressure 105lbs, clean, dry, and smooth blacktop flat surface - not cambered. Radius Speed 30 ft. 45.325mph 20 ft. 34.569mph 15 ft. 23.547mph 10 ft. 18.3675mph However I've fallen off at under 15mph when taking a bend in the rain - very big difference from 45mph!
  - Coding_Cat 11y ago
    Well, comparing wet-weather conditions with theoretical max cornering speeds is ludicrous, quite frankly. Of course there's a reasonable change of slippage at 25kmh on racing slicks. It should be noted that it's also Rotterdam, the Netherlands we're talking about here. That doesn't mean that bureaucrats can't screw up, but if this type of road is unfit for bicycles they'll probably find out quick enough ;)
    - masklinn 11y ago
      > Well, comparing wet-weather conditions with theoretical max cornering speeds is ludicrous, quite frankly. Depending on the exact paint (I guess since I haven't had this issue over all markings) fully painted surface can be (much) worse than wet-weather for loss of traction, and those can also get wet making any corner taken beyond walking speed a mortal danger.
roel_v 11y ago
Fortunately we don't optimize for minorities of recreational riders. If your motorcycle doesn't have enough traction - well it's an unsafe vehicle and you should have it fixed.
- thanatosmin 11y ago
  Motorcycle traction and car traction are not different things. And if roadways should be optimized only for non-recreational use I hope they work on banning car trips for leisure soon!
  - mulletbum 11y ago
    Yes they are two different things. Cars have 4 wheels and can make up for lost traction from other wheels. Motorcycles can't. They aren't being optimized for either of those conditions, they are being optimized based on environmental safety and necessity.
furyg3 11y ago
This is a very valid point, not just for motorcyclists but also for cars. Grip in cold conditions is important, and there are also interesting tradeoffs between noise, tire wear, and traction.
- hobs 11y ago
  I see a bunch of people crabbing about motorcycles and how they shouldnt stop us from choosing a more slick road surface. A slicker road surface is not a good idea in many places, see something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp2sqrfGSPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp2sqrfGSPI where cars are slipping and sliding down a hill covered in ice.
  - mulletbum 11y ago
    People driving inappropriate for weather conditions should not be a factor in our decision making. If anything it just proves that we should work harder to stop drivers who are obviously incapable of determining appropriate driving procedures for current weather conditions. There will be the day when if you have a self driving car and you get in an accident with someone who is not in one, the manual driver will always receive the ticket. Just like in fender benders with the person who is in back.
1stop 11y ago
Traction and plastics... Get 3M on the case!
norea-armozel 11y ago
I think certain plastics could be safer material since you won't need to paint them to mark lanes. You'd just bake in the colors while extruding. The only problem I see is can plastics maintain the required texture to ensure the best grip for all kinds of tires and conditions. I would like them to test this out before using it even as a replacement for sidewalks.
gotoSander 11y ago
I think they would have paid attention to traction, bicycles are pretty popular in Rotterdam so I can't imagine them not having put much thought in to it.

Zuikaku 11y ago

Because motorcycles are the number one users of road? Because the enjoyment of a small proportion of users outweigh whatever environmental and economic costs of improving infrastructure?

pvdebbe 11y ago
Are you forgetting that two-wheelers are usually a very fuel-efficient way to travel distances? Besides, if the road markings are anything to go by, it would be terribly slippery for drivers too.
masklinn 11y ago
> Because motorcycles are the number one users of road? Traction issues happen on all wheeled vehicles, motorcycles are just extremely sensitive to them. A few years back I got rear-ended (at low speed) because of pretty much the issue mentioned: fully painted crosswalk in wet conditions, the car behind just slipped on it and couldn't stop, ended up in the trunk.
- mulletbum 11y ago
  Maybe they were just a terrible driver. I live in a cold U.S. State and have never slipped on Ice and RearEnded someone. I have never been in a situation where I slid down a hill and couldn't stop, mostly because I drive like you are supposed to in the Winter. Self driving cars will invalidate the need to worry about traction as they will force themselves to adjust to conditions instead of humans choosing to drive inappropriate for current weather conditions.
  - mvid 11y ago
    Or maybe they were not, and slippery roads are a significant issue.
    - mulletbum 11y ago
      If everyone drove 1mph do you believe there would be as many car accidents from slipping? Nope. This type of event occurs because of human misjudgment.
      - mvid 11y ago
        Yes, and the world would also be a safer place if people went 0 miles per hour and never left their houses, but both situations are pointlessly unrealistic. We won't see a major population of self driving cars for decades. There are perhaps a dozen live models. We have millions of human driven cars now. This is the problem we solve for, not the ideal future fantasy.
        mulletbum 11y ago
        I think you missed the point. I didn't give the 1mph example to imply that it should be the way it is. I used it to point that you are incorrect in saying "or maybe they were not." Accidents, mishaps, misjudgements, say what you will, but they are all just human error, not "acts of god." So you are incorrect to say they were anything but that, no matter how much you wish they were. We also solve for the future all the time, constantly, every day. We build solar powered devices to stop global warming and pollution. Every day we work towards a "future fantasy." It is like saying we don't need roads because we have these horses we have been riding. Why build rubber wheels when our wood carriages work just fine. Why build a smaller computer when this massive datacenter works just fine.
  - masklinn 11y ago
    > Maybe they were just a terrible driver. I live in a cold U.S. State and have never slipped on Ice This wasn't winter, there was no ice, and it was low-speed urban driving. The wet crosswalk simply had close to no traction.
jdietrich 11y ago
Motorcycles and bicycles have a vastly disproportionate impact on improving traffic flow. As traffic density increases, two wheelers fill the gaps left by cars, occupying effectively zero road space when traffic is completely gridlocked. Bikes also occupy very little parking space - five or six motorcycles can fit in the space of a single car. As pvdebbe points out, motorcycles can be extremely fuel efficient. A 125cc motorcycle or scooter can realistically achieve 90-100mpg. A small motorcycle is much more economical to manufacture than a small car, with about a fifth of the embodied energy. Modern bikes are equipped with catalytic converters and have sophisticated engine management, so produce very low levels of local air pollutants. Two wheeled vehicles have an essential role to play in solving our current transport problems. http://www.acem.eu/images/stories/doc/pressreleases/2011/PTW_Belgium_Study_FEBIAC_ENG.PDF http://www.acem.eu/images/stories/doc/pressreleases/2011/PTW...
- Coding_Cat 11y ago
  Even if all of this is true and then some, it doesn't change the fact that there are very little motorbikes on the road. Switching to these types of roads, even if it were impossible to ride on for motorbikes might still be a net positive for the environment.
  - contingencies 11y ago
    Not really. In much of Asia, which is most of the world's population, two wheelers dominate. Traditionally bicycles, which was followed by motorbikes in South and Southeast Asia and electric scooters in China. There's a reason why they continue to dominate, and it's not just the cost of cars (I've regularly seen people riding bicycles worth more than many people's cars here in China) - it's because they're practical! Parking, repair, exercise, lack of traffic congestion, etc.
notauser 11y ago
It is a problem for cycles too - at least road bikes with thin tires. I found these figures for road bike theoretical max cornering speeds - road bike with Continental GP4000 700x213c tires, rider weight of 180 lbs., tire pressure 105lbs, clean, dry, and smooth blacktop flat surface - not cambered. Radius Speed 30 ft. 45.325mph 20 ft. 34.569mph 15 ft. 23.547mph 10 ft. 18.3675mph However I've fallen off at under 15mph when taking a bend in the rain - very big difference from 45mph!
- Coding_Cat 11y ago
  Well, comparing wet-weather conditions with theoretical max cornering speeds is ludicrous, quite frankly. Of course there's a reasonable change of slippage at 25kmh on racing slicks. It should be noted that it's also Rotterdam, the Netherlands we're talking about here. That doesn't mean that bureaucrats can't screw up, but if this type of road is unfit for bicycles they'll probably find out quick enough ;)
  - masklinn 11y ago
    > Well, comparing wet-weather conditions with theoretical max cornering speeds is ludicrous, quite frankly. Depending on the exact paint (I guess since I haven't had this issue over all markings) fully painted surface can be (much) worse than wet-weather for loss of traction, and those can also get wet making any corner taken beyond walking speed a mortal danger.

roel_v 11y ago

Fortunately we don't optimize for minorities of recreational riders. If your motorcycle doesn't have enough traction - well it's an unsafe vehicle and you should have it fixed.

thanatosmin 11y ago
Motorcycle traction and car traction are not different things. And if roadways should be optimized only for non-recreational use I hope they work on banning car trips for leisure soon!
- mulletbum 11y ago
  Yes they are two different things. Cars have 4 wheels and can make up for lost traction from other wheels. Motorcycles can't. They aren't being optimized for either of those conditions, they are being optimized based on environmental safety and necessity.

furyg3 11y ago

This is a very valid point, not just for motorcyclists but also for cars. Grip in cold conditions is important, and there are also interesting tradeoffs between noise, tire wear, and traction.

hobs 11y ago
I see a bunch of people crabbing about motorcycles and how they shouldnt stop us from choosing a more slick road surface. A slicker road surface is not a good idea in many places, see something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp2sqrfGSPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp2sqrfGSPI where cars are slipping and sliding down a hill covered in ice.
- mulletbum 11y ago
  People driving inappropriate for weather conditions should not be a factor in our decision making. If anything it just proves that we should work harder to stop drivers who are obviously incapable of determining appropriate driving procedures for current weather conditions. There will be the day when if you have a self driving car and you get in an accident with someone who is not in one, the manual driver will always receive the ticket. Just like in fender benders with the person who is in back.

1stop 11y ago

Traction and plastics... Get 3M on the case!

norea-armozel 11y ago

I think certain plastics could be safer material since you won't need to paint them to mark lanes. You'd just bake in the colors while extruding. The only problem I see is can plastics maintain the required texture to ensure the best grip for all kinds of tires and conditions. I would like them to test this out before using it even as a replacement for sidewalks.

gotoSander 11y ago

I think they would have paid attention to traction, bicycles are pretty popular in Rotterdam so I can't imagine them not having put much thought in to it.