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So what do you propose? How would you fix it? As far as I can see, if you've already got nearly half of your pensioners living below the poverty line, the answ

So what do you propose? How would you fix it? As far as I can see, if you've already got nearly half of your pensioners living below the poverty line, the answer is not more cuts to their payouts. With unemployment at approximately 25% there are many people who can't save money to supplement their pension, plus right now we need Greeks to invest in their own future rather than save. The only solutions I see for the Greeks (if they stay in the Euro) are to stimulate growth and raise the retirement age. Do you agree, or do you see it differently?

tptacek 11y ago
Ultimately, you can only make the pension payments you can actually afford. Regardless of the standard of living of Greek pensioners, they can't make up money out of thin air to pay them. Something has to give. Usually, that means raising taxes on young workers. But in Greece's case, that's problematic for other reasons.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  Sure, you can only make the pension payments you can afford, but if a high proportion of Greek pensioners are already struggling (nearly half), wouldn't it be better all round to look to other areas of the economy to find money? Furthermore, increasing the retirement age buys you time to reform the economy by temporarily slowing the number of new retirees. Pension reform is almost inevitable, but let's not punish those who are already struggling on their current pension, let's reform it for later generations, making it clear that private savings will be an essential component of future pensions, giving those affected time to save (once the economy returns to growth).
sampo 11y ago
> the answer is not more cuts to their payouts Either Greece would start living within their means, or -- as the case is now -- other countries are giving money to Greece so Greece can e.g. pay pensions to their citizens. But in the long run, they may run out of other countries willing to give them money, and then they must start living within their means.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  Dropping the debt burden in the short term strikes me as the most effective way to give Greece the time to make those adjustments. If the interest generated on the debt was frozen and payments deferred for a few years, and no extra loans given, Greece could readjust, but with debt of approximately 150% of GDP and restrictive austerity demands made by those who hold the debt, Greece has limited opportunities to find the growth it needs to 'balance the books'. You could look at the pensions issue as an example of living beyond their means, or you could look at it as a high portion of GDP only because the growth wasn't strong enough. Focus on growth and the pension issue becomes far less significant.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Debt servive is a problem and it seems like much of Greece's debt should simply be written off, but Greece pretty consistently runs a primary deficit; even the years in which they've claimed a primary surplus, the numbers have turned out to be very sketchy.
    - ZenoArrow 11y ago
      Supposedly Greece had small signs of growth in 2014, but I'm not clear on how accurate these claims were. From what I've read the last clear signs of growth that Greece had was around 2008 (before the global economic recession), is this claim also sketchy?
    - peterfirefly 11y ago
      Debt service is however not one of Greece's current problems, no matter what they say or think.
      - ZenoArrow 11y ago
        Can you elaborate on why you think that?
        11y ago

tptacek 11y ago

Ultimately, you can only make the pension payments you can actually afford. Regardless of the standard of living of Greek pensioners, they can't make up money out of thin air to pay them. Something has to give. Usually, that means raising taxes on young workers. But in Greece's case, that's problematic for other reasons.

ZenoArrow 11y ago
Sure, you can only make the pension payments you can afford, but if a high proportion of Greek pensioners are already struggling (nearly half), wouldn't it be better all round to look to other areas of the economy to find money? Furthermore, increasing the retirement age buys you time to reform the economy by temporarily slowing the number of new retirees. Pension reform is almost inevitable, but let's not punish those who are already struggling on their current pension, let's reform it for later generations, making it clear that private savings will be an essential component of future pensions, giving those affected time to save (once the economy returns to growth).

sampo 11y ago

> the answer is not more cuts to their payouts Either Greece would start living within their means, or -- as the case is now -- other countries are giving money to Greece so Greece can e.g. pay pensions to their citizens. But in the long run, they may run out of other countries willing to give them money, and then they must start living within their means.

ZenoArrow 11y ago
Dropping the debt burden in the short term strikes me as the most effective way to give Greece the time to make those adjustments. If the interest generated on the debt was frozen and payments deferred for a few years, and no extra loans given, Greece could readjust, but with debt of approximately 150% of GDP and restrictive austerity demands made by those who hold the debt, Greece has limited opportunities to find the growth it needs to 'balance the books'. You could look at the pensions issue as an example of living beyond their means, or you could look at it as a high portion of GDP only because the growth wasn't strong enough. Focus on growth and the pension issue becomes far less significant.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Debt servive is a problem and it seems like much of Greece's debt should simply be written off, but Greece pretty consistently runs a primary deficit; even the years in which they've claimed a primary surplus, the numbers have turned out to be very sketchy.
  - ZenoArrow 11y ago
    Supposedly Greece had small signs of growth in 2014, but I'm not clear on how accurate these claims were. From what I've read the last clear signs of growth that Greece had was around 2008 (before the global economic recession), is this claim also sketchy?
  - peterfirefly 11y ago
    Debt service is however not one of Greece's current problems, no matter what they say or think.
    - ZenoArrow 11y ago
      Can you elaborate on why you think that?
      - 11y ago