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I'll leave aside the ad hominems, and address the core of your arguments. From what I've read there appears to be consensus across the board that the Greeks ap

I'll leave aside the ad hominems, and address the core of your arguments. From what I've read there appears to be consensus across the board that the Greeks approach to taxation is currently too complex, and reform of this tax system would be sensible. With that said, there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what's happening with these loans. Read this... http://jubileedebt.org.uk/reports-briefings/briefing/six-key-points-greek-debt-weeks-election http://jubileedebt.org.uk/reports-briefings/briefing/six-key... "When the IMF, European and ECB bailouts began in 2010, €310 billion had been lent to the Greek government by reckless banks and the wider European financial sector. Since then, the ‘Troika’ of the IMF, EU and European Central Bank have lent €252 billion to the Greek government.[1] Of this, €34.5 billion of the bailout money was used to pay for various ‘sweeteners’ to get the private sector to accept the 2012 debt restructuring. €48.2 billion was used to bailout Greek banks following the restructuring, which did not discriminate between Greek and foreign private lenders. €149.2 billion has been spent on paying the original debts and interest from reckless lenders. This means less than 10% of the money has reached the people of Greece." Furthermore, there's a common misconception that the Greeks are lazy, but the statistics show that they have the longest average working hours in Europe, and their average retirement age is not that different from the rest of Europe. As for Argentina, yes they're not out of the woods yet, but since their economic crash they've had impressive growth. IIRC it's been the fastest growing economy in South America recently, I'm sure I could find the stats if you disputed this. So, with all this in mind, why do you think more loans is the answer?

peterfirefly 11y ago
More Kool-Aid. Reform is the answer. They have three days.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Please try not to come across as rude.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  Do you dispute what the loan money has been spent on? If so, show me your sources.
tptacek 11y ago
The word "lazy" is an emotional appeal. The practical issue seems to have been that Greece had, at least until recently, a very expensive retirement system, projected to dominate GDP within a few decades, and vaulting them to the top of the Eurozone prior to reforms. Not only that, but even after reforms, large numbers of people were grandfathered in to a previous scheme that allowed people working in "arduous" careers --- a list that included such dangerous careers as hairdressing --- to draw a generous (relative to the EU) minimum pension after just 10 years of experience. It's not that people are lazy for accepting generous retirement benefits, or for retiring early. They're being entirely rational by doing that. The problem isn't the people, it's the policy. (Most of this is from The Economist).
- peterfirefly 11y ago
  Not only hairdressers but also radio hosts -- microphones harbour a lot of dangerous bacteria, you see.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  The pension situation is interesting. First of all, let's look at the average retirement age, there's a useful graph here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31803814 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31803814 As you can see, whist the average retirement age is lower than average, they're not that different from the average. So you have the Greeks retiring at 57.8 and the British retiring at 58.3, not that different. Secondly, talking about the average Greek pension payment is €713, and 45% of Greek pensioners live below the poverty line. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/17/greece-pension-crisis-people http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/17/greece-pension-... Lastly, costs of pensions is an issue for many countries, as we all live longer (on average). The most straightforward solution is to raise the retirement age, and I fully expect that to happen in Greece.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    You can't quote the retirement age in isolation. You also have to capture the replacement rate, the percentage of the pensioners salary paid out by the plan. That rate usually changes as employers age, so that early retirees replace significantly less of their salary through pensions. The UK, not surprisingly has apparently one of the lowest replacement rates in the world, even for people with full pensions. Greece has one of the highest, and was (at least prior to reforms, some of which may have grandfather clauses) notorious for generous replacement plans for early retirees. Again: these aren't value judgements about Greek citizens. They're assessments of the sustainability of Greece's pension obligations. Greece spends an anomalously high percentage of its GDP on its pensions.

peterfirefly 11y ago

More Kool-Aid. Reform is the answer. They have three days.

tptacek 11y ago
Please try not to come across as rude.
ZenoArrow 11y ago
Do you dispute what the loan money has been spent on? If so, show me your sources.

tptacek 11y ago

The word "lazy" is an emotional appeal. The practical issue seems to have been that Greece had, at least until recently, a very expensive retirement system, projected to dominate GDP within a few decades, and vaulting them to the top of the Eurozone prior to reforms. Not only that, but even after reforms, large numbers of people were grandfathered in to a previous scheme that allowed people working in "arduous" careers --- a list that included such dangerous careers as hairdressing --- to draw a generous (relative to the EU) minimum pension after just 10 years of experience. It's not that people are lazy for accepting generous retirement benefits, or for retiring early. They're being entirely rational by doing that. The problem isn't the people, it's the policy. (Most of this is from The Economist).

peterfirefly 11y ago
Not only hairdressers but also radio hosts -- microphones harbour a lot of dangerous bacteria, you see.
ZenoArrow 11y ago
The pension situation is interesting. First of all, let's look at the average retirement age, there's a useful graph here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31803814 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31803814 As you can see, whist the average retirement age is lower than average, they're not that different from the average. So you have the Greeks retiring at 57.8 and the British retiring at 58.3, not that different. Secondly, talking about the average Greek pension payment is €713, and 45% of Greek pensioners live below the poverty line. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/17/greece-pension-crisis-people http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/17/greece-pension-... Lastly, costs of pensions is an issue for many countries, as we all live longer (on average). The most straightforward solution is to raise the retirement age, and I fully expect that to happen in Greece.
- tptacek 11y ago
  You can't quote the retirement age in isolation. You also have to capture the replacement rate, the percentage of the pensioners salary paid out by the plan. That rate usually changes as employers age, so that early retirees replace significantly less of their salary through pensions. The UK, not surprisingly has apparently one of the lowest replacement rates in the world, even for people with full pensions. Greece has one of the highest, and was (at least prior to reforms, some of which may have grandfather clauses) notorious for generous replacement plans for early retirees. Again: these aren't value judgements about Greek citizens. They're assessments of the sustainability of Greece's pension obligations. Greece spends an anomalously high percentage of its GDP on its pensions.