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You've been drinking a lot of cool aid, it seems. This is a popular propanda statement on a lot of TVs in the region. The greek governments and people had many

You've been drinking a lot of cool aid, it seems. This is a popular propanda statement on a lot of TVs in the region. The greek governments and people had many, many years to reform and they simply refused. They have jaw dropping social spending and corruption. They elected a populist party and voted OXI to the last proposal, which was better than this one. Also, Argentina is in a terrible situation, don't know why you even bring it up. Probably more kool aid you drank from some politician you saw on TV.

mikeash 11y ago
I think you make some good points, but unfortunately your first paragraph and last sentence destroy the value of your comment.
neokya 11y ago
This is my thought as well. Countries which recognised the problem and took charge of it are doing good now, eg Ireland. Greek politics looks quite bad. They need a market friendly government who can indeed do reforms. Sadly, left parties have the majority. Only way forward I guess is to force reform down their throat by IMF/EU first and then hope they realize it then continue it. That's what happened in India in 1991 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_Ind...
grey-area 11y ago
You're both talking past each other by adopting extreme positions and making sweeping moral judgments about entire nations. My issue with this new bailout is that it presents yet more debt as the solution to crushing debts which Greece can't even afford the interest payments on. As the IMF admitted, it's not a sustainable solution, the many politicians and reporters talking about it probably know this but they just don't care because they can more easily sell a simple morality tale about Greek profligacy or German imperialism to their constituents.
- derriz 11y ago
  I agree that more debt is disconcerting. But the alternative of going "cold turkey" would result in a humanitarian crisis. This is a country which imports most of its food, energy and medicine. The banks are bust and the government doesn't have the money to pay next month's public sector salaries.
  - grey-area 11y ago
    To actually exit the vicious downward spiral, they need significant debt forgiveness (yes more), as Germany received after WWII, as well as stuctural reform of course, but one without the other will disappoint both creditors and the Greek people. The funniest thing about this whole manufactured crisis is that the ECB is printing 1 trillion euros via QE at the moment to buy gov bonds and nationalised industry bonds, which completely dwarfs the sums for Greece and is essentially doing the same thing - buying government debt and making all EZ citizens slightly poorer in order to allow counter-cyclical investment. http://www.bloombergview.com/quicktake/europes-qe-quandary http://www.bloombergview.com/quicktake/europes-qe-quandary
- cmurf 11y ago
  Right. And I don't think there is any good path forward. Greece has essentially gone up a box canyon. What annoys me about the IMF is, where the hell were they with these observations and recommendation about debt even one month ago when everything was actually working? Where were they six months ago? The debt load being untenable is not news for everyone else. Apparently the EU has a law that makes actual debt forgiveness illegal, all that can be done is extend it or reduce the interest rate. Neither of these approximates what the IMF would recommend, has recommended, to any other country with their own currency rather than being part of a currency union: monetize the debt through inflation. I can understand the German affinity for rules and policy adherence over politics. But self evidently the Greeks are not Germans, and do not share this preference. So how does the EU system afford a compromise that at worst means both sides are equally unhappy? Because right now, basically Germany and the creditors are getting their way to the expense of Greece. Europe is clearly not willing to either bail out Greece (or Portugal, or Italy), nor long term subsidize their economies like what happens in the U.S. It's not willing or able to setup an EU wide tax structure that's EU administered and audited to both make compliance easy, as well as consistently punishing tax evasion across all socio-economic levels. None of the major problems have been addressed: Greece's debt load is unchanged, as well as its affinity for patronage and tax evasion.
peterfirefly 11y ago
> They elected a populist party and voted OXI to the last proposal, which was better than this one. It was nicer and softer but not better -- with this agreement, they have three days to finally, finally!, pass some much needed reforms, many of which were already promised as part of previous relief packages. If they actually do pass them, they will be much, much better off. Shame that the "Greuhandanstalt" will be in Athens under Greek management instead of in Northern Europe under adult control. Maybe they will fix that if Greece doesn't meet the deadline and they get a chance to renegotiate. This is what happens when you try to play chicken with a brick wall.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ZenoArrow 11y ago
I'll leave aside the ad hominems, and address the core of your arguments. From what I've read there appears to be consensus across the board that the Greeks approach to taxation is currently too complex, and reform of this tax system would be sensible. With that said, there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what's happening with these loans. Read this... http://jubileedebt.org.uk/reports-briefings/briefing/six-key-points-greek-debt-weeks-election http://jubileedebt.org.uk/reports-briefings/briefing/six-key... "When the IMF, European and ECB bailouts began in 2010, €310 billion had been lent to the Greek government by reckless banks and the wider European financial sector. Since then, the ‘Troika’ of the IMF, EU and European Central Bank have lent €252 billion to the Greek government.[1] Of this, €34.5 billion of the bailout money was used to pay for various ‘sweeteners’ to get the private sector to accept the 2012 debt restructuring. €48.2 billion was used to bailout Greek banks following the restructuring, which did not discriminate between Greek and foreign private lenders. €149.2 billion has been spent on paying the original debts and interest from reckless lenders. This means less than 10% of the money has reached the people of Greece." Furthermore, there's a common misconception that the Greeks are lazy, but the statistics show that they have the longest average working hours in Europe, and their average retirement age is not that different from the rest of Europe. As for Argentina, yes they're not out of the woods yet, but since their economic crash they've had impressive growth. IIRC it's been the fastest growing economy in South America recently, I'm sure I could find the stats if you disputed this. So, with all this in mind, why do you think more loans is the answer?
- peterfirefly 11y ago
  More Kool-Aid. Reform is the answer. They have three days.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Please try not to come across as rude.
  - ZenoArrow 11y ago
    Do you dispute what the loan money has been spent on? If so, show me your sources.

mikeash 11y ago

I think you make some good points, but unfortunately your first paragraph and last sentence destroy the value of your comment.

neokya 11y ago

This is my thought as well. Countries which recognised the problem and took charge of it are doing good now, eg Ireland. Greek politics looks quite bad. They need a market friendly government who can indeed do reforms. Sadly, left parties have the majority. Only way forward I guess is to force reform down their throat by IMF/EU first and then hope they realize it then continue it. That's what happened in India in 1991 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_Ind...

grey-area 11y ago

You're both talking past each other by adopting extreme positions and making sweeping moral judgments about entire nations. My issue with this new bailout is that it presents yet more debt as the solution to crushing debts which Greece can't even afford the interest payments on. As the IMF admitted, it's not a sustainable solution, the many politicians and reporters talking about it probably know this but they just don't care because they can more easily sell a simple morality tale about Greek profligacy or German imperialism to their constituents.

derriz 11y ago
I agree that more debt is disconcerting. But the alternative of going "cold turkey" would result in a humanitarian crisis. This is a country which imports most of its food, energy and medicine. The banks are bust and the government doesn't have the money to pay next month's public sector salaries.
- grey-area 11y ago
  To actually exit the vicious downward spiral, they need significant debt forgiveness (yes more), as Germany received after WWII, as well as stuctural reform of course, but one without the other will disappoint both creditors and the Greek people. The funniest thing about this whole manufactured crisis is that the ECB is printing 1 trillion euros via QE at the moment to buy gov bonds and nationalised industry bonds, which completely dwarfs the sums for Greece and is essentially doing the same thing - buying government debt and making all EZ citizens slightly poorer in order to allow counter-cyclical investment. http://www.bloombergview.com/quicktake/europes-qe-quandary http://www.bloombergview.com/quicktake/europes-qe-quandary
cmurf 11y ago
Right. And I don't think there is any good path forward. Greece has essentially gone up a box canyon. What annoys me about the IMF is, where the hell were they with these observations and recommendation about debt even one month ago when everything was actually working? Where were they six months ago? The debt load being untenable is not news for everyone else. Apparently the EU has a law that makes actual debt forgiveness illegal, all that can be done is extend it or reduce the interest rate. Neither of these approximates what the IMF would recommend, has recommended, to any other country with their own currency rather than being part of a currency union: monetize the debt through inflation. I can understand the German affinity for rules and policy adherence over politics. But self evidently the Greeks are not Germans, and do not share this preference. So how does the EU system afford a compromise that at worst means both sides are equally unhappy? Because right now, basically Germany and the creditors are getting their way to the expense of Greece. Europe is clearly not willing to either bail out Greece (or Portugal, or Italy), nor long term subsidize their economies like what happens in the U.S. It's not willing or able to setup an EU wide tax structure that's EU administered and audited to both make compliance easy, as well as consistently punishing tax evasion across all socio-economic levels. None of the major problems have been addressed: Greece's debt load is unchanged, as well as its affinity for patronage and tax evasion.

peterfirefly 11y ago

> They elected a populist party and voted OXI to the last proposal, which was better than this one. It was nicer and softer but not better -- with this agreement, they have three days to finally, finally!, pass some much needed reforms, many of which were already promised as part of previous relief packages. If they actually do pass them, they will be much, much better off. Shame that the "Greuhandanstalt" will be in Athens under Greek management instead of in Northern Europe under adult control. Maybe they will fix that if Greece doesn't meet the deadline and they get a chance to renegotiate. This is what happens when you try to play chicken with a brick wall.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ZenoArrow 11y ago

I'll leave aside the ad hominems, and address the core of your arguments. From what I've read there appears to be consensus across the board that the Greeks approach to taxation is currently too complex, and reform of this tax system would be sensible. With that said, there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what's happening with these loans. Read this... http://jubileedebt.org.uk/reports-briefings/briefing/six-key-points-greek-debt-weeks-election http://jubileedebt.org.uk/reports-briefings/briefing/six-key... "When the IMF, European and ECB bailouts began in 2010, €310 billion had been lent to the Greek government by reckless banks and the wider European financial sector. Since then, the ‘Troika’ of the IMF, EU and European Central Bank have lent €252 billion to the Greek government.[1] Of this, €34.5 billion of the bailout money was used to pay for various ‘sweeteners’ to get the private sector to accept the 2012 debt restructuring. €48.2 billion was used to bailout Greek banks following the restructuring, which did not discriminate between Greek and foreign private lenders. €149.2 billion has been spent on paying the original debts and interest from reckless lenders. This means less than 10% of the money has reached the people of Greece." Furthermore, there's a common misconception that the Greeks are lazy, but the statistics show that they have the longest average working hours in Europe, and their average retirement age is not that different from the rest of Europe. As for Argentina, yes they're not out of the woods yet, but since their economic crash they've had impressive growth. IIRC it's been the fastest growing economy in South America recently, I'm sure I could find the stats if you disputed this. So, with all this in mind, why do you think more loans is the answer?

peterfirefly 11y ago
More Kool-Aid. Reform is the answer. They have three days.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Please try not to come across as rude.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  Do you dispute what the loan money has been spent on? If so, show me your sources.