5 ms·

What's the alternative?

by erkkie 11y ago

ExpiredLink 11y ago
Argentina
aembleton 11y ago
Adopting a free floating currency so that countries aren't tied to other, more powerful countries but can instead let their economies grow at different speeds.
- erkkie 11y ago
  I agree that would be the best economic theoretical model, is it in any way feasible realistically though? Politically? Even if ignoring the EU side of it (which is nontrivial for various reasons not limited to defense, the vision of the EU, etc), is there a magic wand that would make the Greek government not be populist and wasteful with their own currency?
  - aembleton 11y ago
    Politically it would be very difficult. The problem with the EU is that it fantasises about being a United States of Europe. The problem with this is that Europe is not united. We have different languages, culture and histories. This is also what make Europe a beautiful, culturally rich place. The political elites are trying to impose a one size fits all model across Europe which won't work because we are not really all that united. We don't have a common European demos that means that individual countries are fighting for their own interest and their is no overall strategy for Europe because the electorate doesn't really care about Europe, just what they get from being a part of it. We really need to go back to being a trading block and to remove all of the political dictact and interference. If we really must have political unions, then they need to be between countries that share a common language so that the people can challenge their political masters collectively. This would mean Britian and Ireland, Germany and Austria, France and Belgium.
    - erkkie 11y ago
      Where would you draw the line? Euro as a common currency makes travel super convenient for example, not to mention the Schengen area and open borders. Same could be said for certain regulations in health and sanitation for example, knowing you could rely on some forms of standards existing (however poorly implemented or not). Also why would you make artificial barriers based on language, shouldn't the lines be formed based on culture and common understanding instead? Language is not what is preventing common people from participating in politics.
      - aembleton 11y ago
        Not having to change currencies is convenient but at least in the UK you can get Credit Cards without charge for use overseas including cash withdrawl - http://www.halifax.co.uk/creditcards/clarity-card/ http://www.halifax.co.uk/creditcards/clarity-card/. Then when you travel you don't need to change currency, just head to the ATM or just use your card. You can't compare prices so easily, but then taxes are different even within the eurozone. Language is preventing me from watching Austrian TV and phoning into their radio debates. That is, the population of Europe is silo'd whilst their political masters are attempting to work together. This is fractured because the electorate that place these politicians into positions of power cannot unite together to challenge them. If there was a political union between the UK and Ireland then language wouldn't prevent me from calling an RTE show. We even already have a political party operating both in Westminster and Dublin - Sinn Féin.
      - aembleton 11y ago
        Imposing sanitary standards from the centre sounds great but in reality is one countries ideals being pushed onto another's. For example, the EU is trying to prevent restaurants serving olive oil from jugs: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10064787/EU-to-ban-olive-oil-jugs-from-restaurants.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10064787... This might seem sensible to many in Northern Europe, but I imagine that in the Mediterranean this is almost an attack on their culture. If countries like Britain and Germany want higher hygiene levels on the olive oil served in their restaurants then they can do that themselves but they shouldn't be imposing that onto Spain and Italy. Part of the excitement on travelling to other countries is the differences; the longer the EU goes on with it's powertrip the more homogenised we will become.
- ExpiredLink 11y ago
  ... just like Brazil.
spdy 11y ago
To renegotiate the debt of all €zone members. The EU needs a solid program in the future for debt problems. Right now its a mess. What will we do on the next recession that will come for sure. Or does anybody believe France or Italy will accept cut downs like Greek or being treated like them.
- erkkie 11y ago
  Who should finance that and why? Italy is having their own EU vs Greece moment internally with North vs South.
- ExpiredLink 11y ago
  No other country lent (and will lend) money to France or Italy.
  - spdy 11y ago
    If France or Italy cant recapitalize on the free market anymore we can shut down the world economy for good.
vegancap 11y ago
Drop the Euro, devalue, re-adopt the Drachma, exit the single market currency and agree to more flexible debt repayment terms whilst not dictated to by the Troika. Obviously Greece will still have to make repayments, they'll be more on their terms, rather than the ECB's. With the devalued drachma restored, the tourist sector will boom, and their exports will improve drastically. Subsequently their GDP will rise and they'll be in a better position to make repayments to its creditors. Without exposing further risk to surrounding Med member states who are not much stronger at the moment. Individuals should convert their euro's into bitcoins or other, more stable, flexible assets to use whilst this happens and until the Drachma stabilises. At this point either path will be a long and difficult one, but I think there's light at the end of the #Grexit path.
bjourne 11y ago
Germany and France could, if they wanted to, completely void Greece's debt. They have a combined GDP of about $6.5 trillion. Greece GDP is $0.24 trillion and is one of the smallest players in the EMU. But the don't have to and they don't want to because then other countries could also think that they shouldn't have to pay their debts. I think they are ruining the Euro project because they are creating a lot of animosity between peoples. Greece will survive but it will be remembered for a long time that in their worst crisis they were being bullied by their bigger brothers. Right or wrong, that's how it is seen.

What's the alternative?

by erkkie 11y ago

What's the alternative?

ExpiredLink 11y ago

Argentina

aembleton 11y ago

Adopting a free floating currency so that countries aren't tied to other, more powerful countries but can instead let their economies grow at different speeds.

erkkie 11y ago
I agree that would be the best economic theoretical model, is it in any way feasible realistically though? Politically? Even if ignoring the EU side of it (which is nontrivial for various reasons not limited to defense, the vision of the EU, etc), is there a magic wand that would make the Greek government not be populist and wasteful with their own currency?
- aembleton 11y ago
  Politically it would be very difficult. The problem with the EU is that it fantasises about being a United States of Europe. The problem with this is that Europe is not united. We have different languages, culture and histories. This is also what make Europe a beautiful, culturally rich place. The political elites are trying to impose a one size fits all model across Europe which won't work because we are not really all that united. We don't have a common European demos that means that individual countries are fighting for their own interest and their is no overall strategy for Europe because the electorate doesn't really care about Europe, just what they get from being a part of it. We really need to go back to being a trading block and to remove all of the political dictact and interference. If we really must have political unions, then they need to be between countries that share a common language so that the people can challenge their political masters collectively. This would mean Britian and Ireland, Germany and Austria, France and Belgium.
  - erkkie 11y ago
    Where would you draw the line? Euro as a common currency makes travel super convenient for example, not to mention the Schengen area and open borders. Same could be said for certain regulations in health and sanitation for example, knowing you could rely on some forms of standards existing (however poorly implemented or not). Also why would you make artificial barriers based on language, shouldn't the lines be formed based on culture and common understanding instead? Language is not what is preventing common people from participating in politics.
    - aembleton 11y ago
      Not having to change currencies is convenient but at least in the UK you can get Credit Cards without charge for use overseas including cash withdrawl - http://www.halifax.co.uk/creditcards/clarity-card/ http://www.halifax.co.uk/creditcards/clarity-card/. Then when you travel you don't need to change currency, just head to the ATM or just use your card. You can't compare prices so easily, but then taxes are different even within the eurozone. Language is preventing me from watching Austrian TV and phoning into their radio debates. That is, the population of Europe is silo'd whilst their political masters are attempting to work together. This is fractured because the electorate that place these politicians into positions of power cannot unite together to challenge them. If there was a political union between the UK and Ireland then language wouldn't prevent me from calling an RTE show. We even already have a political party operating both in Westminster and Dublin - Sinn Féin.
    - aembleton 11y ago
      Imposing sanitary standards from the centre sounds great but in reality is one countries ideals being pushed onto another's. For example, the EU is trying to prevent restaurants serving olive oil from jugs: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10064787/EU-to-ban-olive-oil-jugs-from-restaurants.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10064787... This might seem sensible to many in Northern Europe, but I imagine that in the Mediterranean this is almost an attack on their culture. If countries like Britain and Germany want higher hygiene levels on the olive oil served in their restaurants then they can do that themselves but they shouldn't be imposing that onto Spain and Italy. Part of the excitement on travelling to other countries is the differences; the longer the EU goes on with it's powertrip the more homogenised we will become.
ExpiredLink 11y ago
... just like Brazil.

spdy 11y ago

To renegotiate the debt of all €zone members. The EU needs a solid program in the future for debt problems. Right now its a mess. What will we do on the next recession that will come for sure. Or does anybody believe France or Italy will accept cut downs like Greek or being treated like them.

erkkie 11y ago
Who should finance that and why? Italy is having their own EU vs Greece moment internally with North vs South.
ExpiredLink 11y ago
No other country lent (and will lend) money to France or Italy.
- spdy 11y ago
  If France or Italy cant recapitalize on the free market anymore we can shut down the world economy for good.

vegancap 11y ago

Drop the Euro, devalue, re-adopt the Drachma, exit the single market currency and agree to more flexible debt repayment terms whilst not dictated to by the Troika. Obviously Greece will still have to make repayments, they'll be more on their terms, rather than the ECB's. With the devalued drachma restored, the tourist sector will boom, and their exports will improve drastically. Subsequently their GDP will rise and they'll be in a better position to make repayments to its creditors. Without exposing further risk to surrounding Med member states who are not much stronger at the moment. Individuals should convert their euro's into bitcoins or other, more stable, flexible assets to use whilst this happens and until the Drachma stabilises. At this point either path will be a long and difficult one, but I think there's light at the end of the #Grexit path.

bjourne 11y ago

Germany and France could, if they wanted to, completely void Greece's debt. They have a combined GDP of about $6.5 trillion. Greece GDP is $0.24 trillion and is one of the smallest players in the EMU. But the don't have to and they don't want to because then other countries could also think that they shouldn't have to pay their debts. I think they are ruining the Euro project because they are creating a lot of animosity between peoples. Greece will survive but it will be remembered for a long time that in their worst crisis they were being bullied by their bigger brothers. Right or wrong, that's how it is seen.