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1. Because Tsipras hoped that the referendum would make Germany become more sympathetic. It didn't. Tsipras isn't willing to risk a Grexit, because that could t

by gizmo 11y ago

1. Because Tsipras hoped that the referendum would make Germany become more sympathetic. It didn't. Tsipras isn't willing to risk a Grexit, because that could turn out a total catastrophe. The only option that remains is capitulation. 2. #thisisacoup refers to the offer made. Offering a country to give up sovereignty is a coup, pretty much. It goes against all democratic principles Europe was founded on. The alternative (grexit) is impossible without support from ECB/IMF to prevent a complete collapse of the financial system. Tsipras didn't prepare for this plan B. So Germany made Greece "an offer they couldn't refuse": Greece has 72 hours to implement all sorts of laws or face utter destruction.

claudius 11y ago
@2: Taking sovereignty from a government is a coup. Offering money to a country is everything, but not a coup. If a coup did take place, it took place in northern europe, where governments ignored the will of the people and went ahead to waste more money on the corrupt Greek system. The fact that Greece may or may not face “utter destruction” is solely due to Greek overspending and irresponsibility. What Germany offered was help under the condition that Greece stops killing itself. Related: Why didn’t Greece implement some reforms already? Everywhere it seems to be a common understanding that reforms are only going to be implemented in return for more money. However, it is fairly obvious that it is in the country’s best interest to e.g. tackle its tax-collection problem regardless of whether or not new euros arrive. Why then does northern Europe have to insist on (among others) this reform and offer an incentive in the form of new credits to have it implemented? Can we go to Greece next week and say “Unless you pay us 80 billion over the next 3 years, we’re going to stop collecting taxes and face ‘utter destruction’!”? Can we then continue and blame them for staging a coup when they insist they’ll only pay those billions if we, in fact, do continue to collect taxes?
- gizmo 11y ago
  Did you just claim Greece committed a coup on Germany? This can't be serious. Every government on the planet squanders money. That doesn't mean the government action is illegitimate or undemocratic. > Greece faces [utter destruction] solely due to Greek overspending and irresponsibility Not true. Have you been following the discussion? It's a multifaceted problem. One huge aspect is that the production in Greece can't compete with production in northern Europe. Besides, moral grandstanding doesn't solve anything. Bad policy just makes the situation in Greece worse. So we shouldn't do that. Punishing people for the mistakes of their government is cruel and pointless. > What Germany offered was help under the condition that Greece stops killing itself. Unfortunately, nope. Germany offered more debt to a country already in debt, and demanded the sort of reform that damages the already deeply depressed economy. It's not help if it's not helping. > Related: Why didn’t Greece implement some reforms already? Because Germany forbade it. Syriza wanted to raise taxes and take on tax evaders ages ago. Germany said no, because that would be "unilateral action" and would lead to even greater hostility. Did you follow the crisis at all?
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    > Unfortunately, nope. Germany offered more debt to a country already in debt, and demanded the sort of reform that damages the already deeply depressed economy. It's not help if it's not helping. Then don't take it. I think it's really that simple. If Germany's offer (and everyone else's, but the focus seems to be on Germany) is so horrible, then don't take it.
AnimalMuppet 11y ago
So Tsipras destroyed any remaining German good will by asking for a referendum, told the people of Greece to vote no, and then, after they voted no, Tsipras doesn't do what the people said to do in a referendum that he called for and where he told them which way to vote? It was all just a bluff to try to change Germany's position? I'm not saying you're wrong, but... words fail me.

by gizmo 11y ago

claudius 11y ago

@2: Taking sovereignty from a government is a coup. Offering money to a country is everything, but not a coup. If a coup did take place, it took place in northern europe, where governments ignored the will of the people and went ahead to waste more money on the corrupt Greek system. The fact that Greece may or may not face “utter destruction” is solely due to Greek overspending and irresponsibility. What Germany offered was help under the condition that Greece stops killing itself. Related: Why didn’t Greece implement some reforms already? Everywhere it seems to be a common understanding that reforms are only going to be implemented in return for more money. However, it is fairly obvious that it is in the country’s best interest to e.g. tackle its tax-collection problem regardless of whether or not new euros arrive. Why then does northern Europe have to insist on (among others) this reform and offer an incentive in the form of new credits to have it implemented? Can we go to Greece next week and say “Unless you pay us 80 billion over the next 3 years, we’re going to stop collecting taxes and face ‘utter destruction’!”? Can we then continue and blame them for staging a coup when they insist they’ll only pay those billions if we, in fact, do continue to collect taxes?

gizmo 11y ago
Did you just claim Greece committed a coup on Germany? This can't be serious. Every government on the planet squanders money. That doesn't mean the government action is illegitimate or undemocratic. > Greece faces [utter destruction] solely due to Greek overspending and irresponsibility Not true. Have you been following the discussion? It's a multifaceted problem. One huge aspect is that the production in Greece can't compete with production in northern Europe. Besides, moral grandstanding doesn't solve anything. Bad policy just makes the situation in Greece worse. So we shouldn't do that. Punishing people for the mistakes of their government is cruel and pointless. > What Germany offered was help under the condition that Greece stops killing itself. Unfortunately, nope. Germany offered more debt to a country already in debt, and demanded the sort of reform that damages the already deeply depressed economy. It's not help if it's not helping. > Related: Why didn’t Greece implement some reforms already? Because Germany forbade it. Syriza wanted to raise taxes and take on tax evaders ages ago. Germany said no, because that would be "unilateral action" and would lead to even greater hostility. Did you follow the crisis at all?
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  > Unfortunately, nope. Germany offered more debt to a country already in debt, and demanded the sort of reform that damages the already deeply depressed economy. It's not help if it's not helping. Then don't take it. I think it's really that simple. If Germany's offer (and everyone else's, but the focus seems to be on Germany) is so horrible, then don't take it.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago

So Tsipras destroyed any remaining German good will by asking for a referendum, told the people of Greece to vote no, and then, after they voted no, Tsipras doesn't do what the people said to do in a referendum that he called for and where he told them which way to vote? It was all just a bluff to try to change Germany's position? I'm not saying you're wrong, but... words fail me.