7 ms·

i find graphics and environment are actually much nicer in games with "no 3d engine". they're not nearly as detailed, but they're just more artistic/pleasant,

by zobzu 11y ago

i find graphics and environment are actually much nicer in games with "no 3d engine". they're not nearly as detailed, but they're just more artistic/pleasant, as if more time was spent in that direction to "compensate" for the lack of detail

digi_owl 11y ago
the whole 3D thing also seems to complicate controls to all hell.
- agumonkey 11y ago
  Part of the reason Nintendo was not hungry to jump on the 3D bandwagon. Most of the 3D games on PS1 launch were very hazardous, messy and bland. If it wasn't for the technology prowess of the day nobody would have bought them.
  - hartator 11y ago
    Mario Kart N64, Super Mario N64 and Goldeneye N64? All 3D game not made by sony at the time of the PS1? Maybe the best in the world? 3D is awesome when made correctly and not trying to reproduce a movie.
    - agumonkey 11y ago
      Come on the N64 came far later, and that was my point. And it was all over the place how Mario 64 gameplay was tailored, camera viewpoint and everything. Many games at the PS1 launch had the cam lost in translation somewhere between polygons, or just point at a weird angle.
    - serf 11y ago
      It's somewhat amusing to think of the N64 being cited when the parents replied to are about 3D environments complicating the control schemes. Most of the people who encountered the N64 did not know how to hold the controller at first glance. This was made worse by the fact that practically every game has a different idea about how the controller was to be used. Nintendo had to settle a court-case by distributing gloves to players complaining of friction injuries.[0] . This was mostly because developers didn't know how to deal with the control schemes of 3D environments very well, and Nintendo was planning for what they considered to be needed in the future : more controls. There's very likely a reason that the M shape was never used for controllers again, however it did leave a lasting legacy in the form of trigger buttons (not shoulder buttons), which are now practically a universal controller feature. [0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64_controller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64_controller
      - mcphage 11y ago
        > it did leave a lasting legacy in the form of trigger buttons Also analog sticks, which are even more important.
      - david-given 11y ago
        I really liked the N64 controller --- I still think it's one of the most comfortable ever. The asymmetrical shape when using it analogue mode felt really nice in the hands. I've never felt happy with the dual-stick PS ones. I'm pretty sure I saw someone being vapourised by one in an episode of Lexx, too.
        nsxwolf 11y ago
        I've always felt like I need 3 hands to use it. It is like 2 controllers welded together. In more complex games I have to constantly change my grip from the outside left to the middle position and I've just never gotten used to it.
        david-given 11y ago
        ...there are games which use the analogue stick and the D-pad? They shouldn't do that --- you're supposed to hold it either by the two outside wings, with d-pad and buttons; or by the middle and the right-hand wing, with analogue stick and buttons. Using the analogue stick and the d-pad makes no sense, for exactly the reasons you say.
        agumonkey 11y ago
        I kinda recall FPS using the paddle that way. d-pad for position, analog for aiming.
        david-given 11y ago
        Okay, let me rephrase: the N64 controller has designed for people with at most two hands. Use the d-pad with the left hand and the analogue stick and trigger with the right hand is fine. Requiring the use of the buttons as well is not.
  - eatfish 11y ago
    Actually, Nintendo were releasing 3D games even before the PS1. Starfox was the first poly 3D game from Nintendo and was released in 1992, at least a year, maybe more, before the PS1.
    - mreiland 11y ago
      I also recall a 3D pacman game on the SNES that was hella fun.
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      Lets not confuse a 2D game using 3D models with one that allow free(-ish) movement in 3D space. Starfox was a rail shooter that used 3D models rather than scaled sprites. the more complicated stuff came with third person shooters and similar. Where you either had fixed cameras, thus having the controls shift between "cuts", or the camera on its own control (tap your head and rub your tummy style).
jonkratz 11y ago
What are some good examples of games without a 3d engine? Your comment makes me feel like I'd like to check them out.
- greyskull 11y ago
  Usually smaller scale indie games are the ones doing it, big shot studios feel the need to go ham on graphics. Here's a handful I managed to scrape together from memory and quick searches, but it's easy to find more. - Shovel Knight - Dust: An Elysian Tail - Hotline Miami - Don't Starve - Spelunky - Braid - Papers, Please - Sunless Sea There _has_ been quite a few retro-style, pixelated graphics style games to come out of that sector for one reason or another, but ignoring that, the games tend to have a more stylized feel to them. Limited fidelity means the games need to more creative, but I think that tends to just come with works of passion from smaller studios.
  - DiabloD3 11y ago
    Let's throw in everything Way Forward is doing as well, such as the Shantae series of games. It's been awhile since I've played a sidescroller that warranted multiple playthroughs, but I picked up Shantae: Risky's Revenge up in one of the HumbleBundles, and I loved the hell out of it. One part Castlevania, one part Megaman, one part Metroid. It was so good I went out and bought an XBox One controller to play it further, even though I don't own an XBox One. Side note: apparently its the best PC gamepad you can find that has a good D-Pad; the D-Pad is probably the best one I've used since my childhood.
    - TJSomething 11y ago
      Oh wow. It's actually plus-shaped. I've been looking for a PC controller with a plus-shaped D-pad for a while. They've been rare for a few years, due to Nintendo's patent on plus-shaped D-pads, but that expired in 2005.
      - DiabloD3 11y ago
TeMPOraL 11y ago
2D games are usually more detailed than their 3D counterpart. I was thinking a long time about why I prefer 2D games to 3D ones, at least in terms of visuals. The conclusion I reached is that it's because technological limitations you get to see in graphics. Models are made from low-poly meshes, and you can (still) see the straight edges where you know they should be curved. Textures are too low-detail; stand next to a wall or close to any entity in a 3D game and you'll always see the texture upscaling, lack of detail. Most of 3D games try to go for "realistic" visuals, but they never cross the uncanny valley. 2D games seem to look prettier to me because they don't set up expectations - so as long as they have consistent art style, the brain doesn't complain much. Moreover, in 2D productions artists usually have full control of every pixel displayed on screen, so the art can be (and usually is) very detailed. The limits that 2D environment places are more strict than limits of available technology, so your experience doesn't get ruined by jagged edges and texture upscaling. That's why I still like the original StarCraft more than StarCraft 2 and think that introducing 3D graphics was a bad decision - the original art style looked serious, dark, had an atmosphere. SC2's style is dominated by clunky 3D models which look more like child's toys than serious hardware. But then again maybe this was made on purpose - the plot of SC2 seems about as serious as the graphics, which is not at all.
- chopman 11y ago
  On the other hand, 3d games that don't try to go for the realistic visuals like Okami or Mario 64 itself look gorgeous.

by zobzu 11y ago

digi_owl 11y ago

the whole 3D thing also seems to complicate controls to all hell.

agumonkey 11y ago
Part of the reason Nintendo was not hungry to jump on the 3D bandwagon. Most of the 3D games on PS1 launch were very hazardous, messy and bland. If it wasn't for the technology prowess of the day nobody would have bought them.
- hartator 11y ago
  Mario Kart N64, Super Mario N64 and Goldeneye N64? All 3D game not made by sony at the time of the PS1? Maybe the best in the world? 3D is awesome when made correctly and not trying to reproduce a movie.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    Come on the N64 came far later, and that was my point. And it was all over the place how Mario 64 gameplay was tailored, camera viewpoint and everything. Many games at the PS1 launch had the cam lost in translation somewhere between polygons, or just point at a weird angle.
  - serf 11y ago
    It's somewhat amusing to think of the N64 being cited when the parents replied to are about 3D environments complicating the control schemes. Most of the people who encountered the N64 did not know how to hold the controller at first glance. This was made worse by the fact that practically every game has a different idea about how the controller was to be used. Nintendo had to settle a court-case by distributing gloves to players complaining of friction injuries.[0] . This was mostly because developers didn't know how to deal with the control schemes of 3D environments very well, and Nintendo was planning for what they considered to be needed in the future : more controls. There's very likely a reason that the M shape was never used for controllers again, however it did leave a lasting legacy in the form of trigger buttons (not shoulder buttons), which are now practically a universal controller feature. [0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64_controller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64_controller
    - mcphage 11y ago
      > it did leave a lasting legacy in the form of trigger buttons Also analog sticks, which are even more important.
    - david-given 11y ago
      I really liked the N64 controller --- I still think it's one of the most comfortable ever. The asymmetrical shape when using it analogue mode felt really nice in the hands. I've never felt happy with the dual-stick PS ones. I'm pretty sure I saw someone being vapourised by one in an episode of Lexx, too.
      - nsxwolf 11y ago
        I've always felt like I need 3 hands to use it. It is like 2 controllers welded together. In more complex games I have to constantly change my grip from the outside left to the middle position and I've just never gotten used to it.
        david-given 11y ago
        ...there are games which use the analogue stick and the D-pad? They shouldn't do that --- you're supposed to hold it either by the two outside wings, with d-pad and buttons; or by the middle and the right-hand wing, with analogue stick and buttons. Using the analogue stick and the d-pad makes no sense, for exactly the reasons you say.
        agumonkey 11y ago
        I kinda recall FPS using the paddle that way. d-pad for position, analog for aiming.
        david-given 11y ago
        Okay, let me rephrase: the N64 controller has designed for people with at most two hands. Use the d-pad with the left hand and the analogue stick and trigger with the right hand is fine. Requiring the use of the buttons as well is not.
- eatfish 11y ago
  Actually, Nintendo were releasing 3D games even before the PS1. Starfox was the first poly 3D game from Nintendo and was released in 1992, at least a year, maybe more, before the PS1.
  - mreiland 11y ago
    I also recall a 3D pacman game on the SNES that was hella fun.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    Lets not confuse a 2D game using 3D models with one that allow free(-ish) movement in 3D space. Starfox was a rail shooter that used 3D models rather than scaled sprites. the more complicated stuff came with third person shooters and similar. Where you either had fixed cameras, thus having the controls shift between "cuts", or the camera on its own control (tap your head and rub your tummy style).

jonkratz 11y ago

What are some good examples of games without a 3d engine? Your comment makes me feel like I'd like to check them out.

greyskull 11y ago
Usually smaller scale indie games are the ones doing it, big shot studios feel the need to go ham on graphics. Here's a handful I managed to scrape together from memory and quick searches, but it's easy to find more. - Shovel Knight - Dust: An Elysian Tail - Hotline Miami - Don't Starve - Spelunky - Braid - Papers, Please - Sunless Sea There _has_ been quite a few retro-style, pixelated graphics style games to come out of that sector for one reason or another, but ignoring that, the games tend to have a more stylized feel to them. Limited fidelity means the games need to more creative, but I think that tends to just come with works of passion from smaller studios.
- DiabloD3 11y ago
  Let's throw in everything Way Forward is doing as well, such as the Shantae series of games. It's been awhile since I've played a sidescroller that warranted multiple playthroughs, but I picked up Shantae: Risky's Revenge up in one of the HumbleBundles, and I loved the hell out of it. One part Castlevania, one part Megaman, one part Metroid. It was so good I went out and bought an XBox One controller to play it further, even though I don't own an XBox One. Side note: apparently its the best PC gamepad you can find that has a good D-Pad; the D-Pad is probably the best one I've used since my childhood.
  - TJSomething 11y ago
    Oh wow. It's actually plus-shaped. I've been looking for a PC controller with a plus-shaped D-pad for a while. They've been rare for a few years, due to Nintendo's patent on plus-shaped D-pads, but that expired in 2005.
    - DiabloD3 11y ago

TeMPOraL 11y ago

2D games are usually more detailed than their 3D counterpart. I was thinking a long time about why I prefer 2D games to 3D ones, at least in terms of visuals. The conclusion I reached is that it's because technological limitations you get to see in graphics. Models are made from low-poly meshes, and you can (still) see the straight edges where you know they should be curved. Textures are too low-detail; stand next to a wall or close to any entity in a 3D game and you'll always see the texture upscaling, lack of detail. Most of 3D games try to go for "realistic" visuals, but they never cross the uncanny valley. 2D games seem to look prettier to me because they don't set up expectations - so as long as they have consistent art style, the brain doesn't complain much. Moreover, in 2D productions artists usually have full control of every pixel displayed on screen, so the art can be (and usually is) very detailed. The limits that 2D environment places are more strict than limits of available technology, so your experience doesn't get ruined by jagged edges and texture upscaling. That's why I still like the original StarCraft more than StarCraft 2 and think that introducing 3D graphics was a bad decision - the original art style looked serious, dark, had an atmosphere. SC2's style is dominated by clunky 3D models which look more like child's toys than serious hardware. But then again maybe this was made on purpose - the plot of SC2 seems about as serious as the graphics, which is not at all.

chopman 11y ago
On the other hand, 3d games that don't try to go for the realistic visuals like Okami or Mario 64 itself look gorgeous.