5 ms·

How does anything here rob the programmer of automation and abstraction? This adds something, it doesn't detract. It's an annotation you can use where you want.

by lemevi 11y ago

How does anything here rob the programmer of automation and abstraction? This adds something, it doesn't detract. It's an annotation you can use where you want. Your observation is specious.

pbh101 11y ago
The GP is referring to Java as the tool that robs the programmer of [various dimensions of] abstraction.
cscurmudgeon 11y ago
This is like a robber who takes your entire house and lets you stay under the porch only when it rains. Will you be grateful to them for giving you shelter?
- kedean 11y ago
  Not really, no. If we're doing analogies, it's like you bought a house with no porch, and sometimes you accidentally get locked out and are stuck in the rain. These guys came along and built you a porch to put next to your house for when it does rain.
  - cscurmudgeon 11y ago
    It is 2015, there are house with porches since 1950 that you could have bought at the same rate. http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
    - eropple 11y ago
      No, not "at the same rate". I wish people would stop linking Paul Graham posts as if they're gospel. In the very real world of running an engineering team, network effects matter, and only in 2015 is there a Lisp (and I don't say this as a "hater" or any of the other easy ways to dismiss someone, I like Lisp and my first collegiate language was Scheme and I've used GNU Guile in multiple projects) that can approach the same value prop as Java when those network effects, the ability to just raise your head and find a sufficient solution to almost any problem that isn't business critical and many problems that are, are taken into account. That Lisp is written for the virtual machine originally written for Java.
      - cscurmudgeon 11y ago
        I wish people would stop saying that Lisp is not suited for the real world when there are billion dollar businesses built using Lisps (other than Clojure). It is 2015, please let us stop the FUD at least now :) PS: I love Java and use it for my day job. Just a few days back I was reading about AutoValue and Immutabiltiy and wishing that Java had more power that would make these hacks unnecessary. I am not saying Lisp is the greatest, but Java definitely feels like assembly when you reach the edges and one has to wait for years to get updates.
        eropple 11y ago
        There are billion-dollar businesses built with PHP, too. I wouldn't use that, either. I don't like Java. I don't like Java at all. (I prefer Clojure or Scala, depending.) But I recognize why it is where it is, and Paul Graham saying Paul Graham things doesn't really change reality.
        cscurmudgeon 11y ago
        Reality is not black and white.

by lemevi 11y ago

How does anything here rob the programmer of automation and abstraction? This adds something, it doesn't detract. It's an annotation you can use where you want. Your observation is specious.

pbh101 11y ago

The GP is referring to Java as the tool that robs the programmer of [various dimensions of] abstraction.

cscurmudgeon 11y ago

This is like a robber who takes your entire house and lets you stay under the porch only when it rains. Will you be grateful to them for giving you shelter?

kedean 11y ago
Not really, no. If we're doing analogies, it's like you bought a house with no porch, and sometimes you accidentally get locked out and are stuck in the rain. These guys came along and built you a porch to put next to your house for when it does rain.
- cscurmudgeon 11y ago
  It is 2015, there are house with porches since 1950 that you could have bought at the same rate. http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
  - eropple 11y ago
    No, not "at the same rate". I wish people would stop linking Paul Graham posts as if they're gospel. In the very real world of running an engineering team, network effects matter, and only in 2015 is there a Lisp (and I don't say this as a "hater" or any of the other easy ways to dismiss someone, I like Lisp and my first collegiate language was Scheme and I've used GNU Guile in multiple projects) that can approach the same value prop as Java when those network effects, the ability to just raise your head and find a sufficient solution to almost any problem that isn't business critical and many problems that are, are taken into account. That Lisp is written for the virtual machine originally written for Java.
    - cscurmudgeon 11y ago
      I wish people would stop saying that Lisp is not suited for the real world when there are billion dollar businesses built using Lisps (other than Clojure). It is 2015, please let us stop the FUD at least now :) PS: I love Java and use it for my day job. Just a few days back I was reading about AutoValue and Immutabiltiy and wishing that Java had more power that would make these hacks unnecessary. I am not saying Lisp is the greatest, but Java definitely feels like assembly when you reach the edges and one has to wait for years to get updates.
      - eropple 11y ago
        There are billion-dollar businesses built with PHP, too. I wouldn't use that, either. I don't like Java. I don't like Java at all. (I prefer Clojure or Scala, depending.) But I recognize why it is where it is, and Paul Graham saying Paul Graham things doesn't really change reality.
        cscurmudgeon 11y ago
        Reality is not black and white.