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> End the culture of punishment that festers in the traditional American Puritan psyche. That people ought to "pay for what they did." Focus on rehabilitation,

> End the culture of punishment that festers in the traditional American Puritan psyche. That people ought to "pay for what they did." Focus on rehabilitation, and make prisons conducive to that end. Coming from Scandinavia, where the focus is on rehabilitation, I agree that is a better goal. At the same time, I think it important to recognize all the purposes of prison: Protecting others from further crimes, revenge for the victims, scaring other potential criminals and rehabilitation of the inmate. These goals are all good. It's just that the US of A have got the balance all messed up. There is no justice in the system anymore. The Scandinavian system have a positive view of humans - that even a murderer can be rehabilitated. That the deed is different from the human. There is a decent balance - someone like Breivik is kept locked up for decades but a teenager caught up in the wrong gang is rehabilitated and released in a year or two. The American way of prison is a disgrace, seen from the outside. It is a nearly medieval way of punishment. Even animals gets psychologically damaged when locked up in cells like those. How can anyone expect humans to come out better. How about applying A/B testing to prisons? Compare a US prison sentence to a Scandinavian prison sentence. Then choose the better one. Rinse, repeat.

ghshephard 11y ago
In the United States, a major objective of prisons is to provide profit for prison corporation, provide jobs/employment for prison guards, and, in California in particular, to protect the extraordinarily powerful prison guard union (that's heavily involved in politics). A secondary benefit (more common in the south), is to provide low cost prison-labor. A lot of the laws are written to drive up incarceration, and protect those stakeholders.
- ars 11y ago
  Why are you posting conspiracy theory nonsense? Or are suggesting judges and jurries are corrupt as well? It's simply about punishment/vengeance that's all and that's enough.
  - wrexd 11y ago
    http://www.salon.com/2013/09/23/6_shocking_revelations_about_how_private_prisons_make_money_partner/ http://www.salon.com/2013/09/23/6_shocking_revelations_about...
  - ghshephard 11y ago
    Conspiracy theory nonsense? Do you for a second believe that anything I just wrote isn't true? I've found in this world, that money is usually a much bigger factor, and influencer. Those with money to gain, can then paint their motives up in something that will stir the masses - "Public Safety", or, "Keeping our communities safe", or somesuch. But, don't believe for a second that if there was some money to be made by reducing the prison population, that it would drop like a rock overnight. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/california-prison-guards_n_3894490.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/california-prison-g...
    - ars 11y ago
      > Do you for a second believe that anything I just wrote isn't true? Yes, what you wrote isn't true. Read the sister posts in this thread for citations and proof. Was the link you posted supposed to be some sort of proof? It wasn't. You are simply repeating and believing conspiracy theories. And the problem with false beliefs about a cause of a problem is they block you from realizing the real problem. So if you try to solve the problem you solve the wrong problem and get nowhere at all.
      - ghshephard 11y ago
        I don't for a second believe that the United States penal issue is not 90%+ correlated with the financial incentives associated with having a large penal population. To try and deal with the prison population, and inhumane sentencing laws, by not starting with that as a first principle is to abandon the fight altogether. This relationship can be subtle - For example - if politicians did not benefit financially from their roles as governors/sheriffs, etc... they would not have an incentive to do anything they could to hold onto their job (and therefore pandering to the masses to have ridiculously strict sentencing), but instead focus on doing the right thing for the people - focussing on rehabilitation and protection of society. And, I am almost certain, that their is a lot of literature showing the California law enforcement unions strongly opposing marijuana legalization, in part because it makes a significant part of their (useless in this case) services no longer needed. I am not arguing that these entrenched money powers aren't pandering to the masses desire for punishment, revenge, blood, fear, etc... But what I'm saying, is that wiser heads that would normally prevail, are being overpowered by the wealthy forces that seek to benefit from the ignorance of the masses. If you still doubt me - just think about something like tobacco - the production, distribution, and merchandising of something that is without a doubt poisonous, kills people, and harms their health - but continues because there is a lot of money behind it. Sorry - this feels like a rant, but it just frustrates me to no end the illogical nature of the US laws and sentencing.

ghshephard 11y ago

In the United States, a major objective of prisons is to provide profit for prison corporation, provide jobs/employment for prison guards, and, in California in particular, to protect the extraordinarily powerful prison guard union (that's heavily involved in politics). A secondary benefit (more common in the south), is to provide low cost prison-labor. A lot of the laws are written to drive up incarceration, and protect those stakeholders.

ars 11y ago
Why are you posting conspiracy theory nonsense? Or are suggesting judges and jurries are corrupt as well? It's simply about punishment/vengeance that's all and that's enough.
- wrexd 11y ago
  http://www.salon.com/2013/09/23/6_shocking_revelations_about_how_private_prisons_make_money_partner/ http://www.salon.com/2013/09/23/6_shocking_revelations_about...
- ghshephard 11y ago
  Conspiracy theory nonsense? Do you for a second believe that anything I just wrote isn't true? I've found in this world, that money is usually a much bigger factor, and influencer. Those with money to gain, can then paint their motives up in something that will stir the masses - "Public Safety", or, "Keeping our communities safe", or somesuch. But, don't believe for a second that if there was some money to be made by reducing the prison population, that it would drop like a rock overnight. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/california-prison-guards_n_3894490.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/california-prison-g...
  - ars 11y ago
    > Do you for a second believe that anything I just wrote isn't true? Yes, what you wrote isn't true. Read the sister posts in this thread for citations and proof. Was the link you posted supposed to be some sort of proof? It wasn't. You are simply repeating and believing conspiracy theories. And the problem with false beliefs about a cause of a problem is they block you from realizing the real problem. So if you try to solve the problem you solve the wrong problem and get nowhere at all.
    - ghshephard 11y ago
      I don't for a second believe that the United States penal issue is not 90%+ correlated with the financial incentives associated with having a large penal population. To try and deal with the prison population, and inhumane sentencing laws, by not starting with that as a first principle is to abandon the fight altogether. This relationship can be subtle - For example - if politicians did not benefit financially from their roles as governors/sheriffs, etc... they would not have an incentive to do anything they could to hold onto their job (and therefore pandering to the masses to have ridiculously strict sentencing), but instead focus on doing the right thing for the people - focussing on rehabilitation and protection of society. And, I am almost certain, that their is a lot of literature showing the California law enforcement unions strongly opposing marijuana legalization, in part because it makes a significant part of their (useless in this case) services no longer needed. I am not arguing that these entrenched money powers aren't pandering to the masses desire for punishment, revenge, blood, fear, etc... But what I'm saying, is that wiser heads that would normally prevail, are being overpowered by the wealthy forces that seek to benefit from the ignorance of the masses. If you still doubt me - just think about something like tobacco - the production, distribution, and merchandising of something that is without a doubt poisonous, kills people, and harms their health - but continues because there is a lot of money behind it. Sorry - this feels like a rant, but it just frustrates me to no end the illogical nature of the US laws and sentencing.