7 ms·

Let's solve the problem instead of the symptom. End the culture of punishment that festers in the traditional American Puritan psyche. That people ought to "pa

Let's solve the problem instead of the symptom. End the culture of punishment that festers in the traditional American Puritan psyche. That people ought to "pay for what they did." Focus on rehabilitation, and make prisons conducive to that end.

zyxley 11y ago
In relation to the moms, I am reminded of Nordic prisons: enforce something approaching a normal life, including basic luxuries and general responsibilities (actual things-to-think-about-and-manage responsibilities, not just "do X repetitive task for six hours"), and recidivism rates go down. The Bastoy prison island in Norway is the quintessential example: it's basically structured like a small town, with jobs, houses with roommates, bicycles and other personal items the prisoners can own, and even a small supermarket. And with all that, the recidivism rate is 16%, the lowest in Europe. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-pri...
- alextgordon 11y ago
  Interesting author: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_James https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_James
x5n1 11y ago
A first step would be to make a more rational criminal justice system, rather than the religion that pretends to do justice that exists today.
draugadrotten 11y ago
> End the culture of punishment that festers in the traditional American Puritan psyche. That people ought to "pay for what they did." Focus on rehabilitation, and make prisons conducive to that end. Coming from Scandinavia, where the focus is on rehabilitation, I agree that is a better goal. At the same time, I think it important to recognize all the purposes of prison: Protecting others from further crimes, revenge for the victims, scaring other potential criminals and rehabilitation of the inmate. These goals are all good. It's just that the US of A have got the balance all messed up. There is no justice in the system anymore. The Scandinavian system have a positive view of humans - that even a murderer can be rehabilitated. That the deed is different from the human. There is a decent balance - someone like Breivik is kept locked up for decades but a teenager caught up in the wrong gang is rehabilitated and released in a year or two. The American way of prison is a disgrace, seen from the outside. It is a nearly medieval way of punishment. Even animals gets psychologically damaged when locked up in cells like those. How can anyone expect humans to come out better. How about applying A/B testing to prisons? Compare a US prison sentence to a Scandinavian prison sentence. Then choose the better one. Rinse, repeat.
- ghshephard 11y ago
  In the United States, a major objective of prisons is to provide profit for prison corporation, provide jobs/employment for prison guards, and, in California in particular, to protect the extraordinarily powerful prison guard union (that's heavily involved in politics). A secondary benefit (more common in the south), is to provide low cost prison-labor. A lot of the laws are written to drive up incarceration, and protect those stakeholders.
  - ars 11y ago
    Why are you posting conspiracy theory nonsense? Or are suggesting judges and jurries are corrupt as well? It's simply about punishment/vengeance that's all and that's enough.
    - wrexd 11y ago
      http://www.salon.com/2013/09/23/6_shocking_revelations_about_how_private_prisons_make_money_partner/ http://www.salon.com/2013/09/23/6_shocking_revelations_about...
    - ghshephard 11y ago
      Conspiracy theory nonsense? Do you for a second believe that anything I just wrote isn't true? I've found in this world, that money is usually a much bigger factor, and influencer. Those with money to gain, can then paint their motives up in something that will stir the masses - "Public Safety", or, "Keeping our communities safe", or somesuch. But, don't believe for a second that if there was some money to be made by reducing the prison population, that it would drop like a rock overnight. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/california-prison-guards_n_3894490.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/california-prison-g...
      - ars 11y ago
        > Do you for a second believe that anything I just wrote isn't true? Yes, what you wrote isn't true. Read the sister posts in this thread for citations and proof. Was the link you posted supposed to be some sort of proof? It wasn't. You are simply repeating and believing conspiracy theories. And the problem with false beliefs about a cause of a problem is they block you from realizing the real problem. So if you try to solve the problem you solve the wrong problem and get nowhere at all.
ars 11y ago
Why does it have to be one or the other? Do both, pick one depending on the crime and past history of the offender. Crimes are already very carefully categorized by type and degree.
norea-armozel 11y ago
The problem is that the Puritan psyche you've mentioned means the average person (some who probably would be or were prisoners) would never go along with your program. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm just saying that we Americans are not going to change our culture over night or even in the coming decades.

zyxley 11y ago

In relation to the moms, I am reminded of Nordic prisons: enforce something approaching a normal life, including basic luxuries and general responsibilities (actual things-to-think-about-and-manage responsibilities, not just "do X repetitive task for six hours"), and recidivism rates go down. The Bastoy prison island in Norway is the quintessential example: it's basically structured like a small town, with jobs, houses with roommates, bicycles and other personal items the prisoners can own, and even a small supermarket. And with all that, the recidivism rate is 16%, the lowest in Europe. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-pri...

alextgordon 11y ago
Interesting author: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_James https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_James

x5n1 11y ago

A first step would be to make a more rational criminal justice system, rather than the religion that pretends to do justice that exists today.

draugadrotten 11y ago

> End the culture of punishment that festers in the traditional American Puritan psyche. That people ought to "pay for what they did." Focus on rehabilitation, and make prisons conducive to that end. Coming from Scandinavia, where the focus is on rehabilitation, I agree that is a better goal. At the same time, I think it important to recognize all the purposes of prison: Protecting others from further crimes, revenge for the victims, scaring other potential criminals and rehabilitation of the inmate. These goals are all good. It's just that the US of A have got the balance all messed up. There is no justice in the system anymore. The Scandinavian system have a positive view of humans - that even a murderer can be rehabilitated. That the deed is different from the human. There is a decent balance - someone like Breivik is kept locked up for decades but a teenager caught up in the wrong gang is rehabilitated and released in a year or two. The American way of prison is a disgrace, seen from the outside. It is a nearly medieval way of punishment. Even animals gets psychologically damaged when locked up in cells like those. How can anyone expect humans to come out better. How about applying A/B testing to prisons? Compare a US prison sentence to a Scandinavian prison sentence. Then choose the better one. Rinse, repeat.

ghshephard 11y ago
In the United States, a major objective of prisons is to provide profit for prison corporation, provide jobs/employment for prison guards, and, in California in particular, to protect the extraordinarily powerful prison guard union (that's heavily involved in politics). A secondary benefit (more common in the south), is to provide low cost prison-labor. A lot of the laws are written to drive up incarceration, and protect those stakeholders.
- ars 11y ago
  Why are you posting conspiracy theory nonsense? Or are suggesting judges and jurries are corrupt as well? It's simply about punishment/vengeance that's all and that's enough.
  - wrexd 11y ago
    http://www.salon.com/2013/09/23/6_shocking_revelations_about_how_private_prisons_make_money_partner/ http://www.salon.com/2013/09/23/6_shocking_revelations_about...
  - ghshephard 11y ago
    Conspiracy theory nonsense? Do you for a second believe that anything I just wrote isn't true? I've found in this world, that money is usually a much bigger factor, and influencer. Those with money to gain, can then paint their motives up in something that will stir the masses - "Public Safety", or, "Keeping our communities safe", or somesuch. But, don't believe for a second that if there was some money to be made by reducing the prison population, that it would drop like a rock overnight. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/california-prison-guards_n_3894490.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/california-prison-g...
    - ars 11y ago
      > Do you for a second believe that anything I just wrote isn't true? Yes, what you wrote isn't true. Read the sister posts in this thread for citations and proof. Was the link you posted supposed to be some sort of proof? It wasn't. You are simply repeating and believing conspiracy theories. And the problem with false beliefs about a cause of a problem is they block you from realizing the real problem. So if you try to solve the problem you solve the wrong problem and get nowhere at all.

ars 11y ago

Why does it have to be one or the other? Do both, pick one depending on the crime and past history of the offender. Crimes are already very carefully categorized by type and degree.

norea-armozel 11y ago

The problem is that the Puritan psyche you've mentioned means the average person (some who probably would be or were prisoners) would never go along with your program. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm just saying that we Americans are not going to change our culture over night or even in the coming decades.