4 ms·

First , we don't need to wait, there are already microcontorllers for $1 with a floating-point unit.Also sleep current is rising greatly as one moves to new nod

by minthd 11y ago

First , we don't need to wait, there are already microcontorllers for $1 with a floating-point unit.Also sleep current is rising greatly as one moves to new nodes - so some micro-controllers will stay on older nodes. But yes 28nm should be popular for mcu's - especially that now we have tools to package very tiny(sub mm2^2 dies) with lots of pins. Anyway, today , and much more so in the future, microcontorllers will be commoditized(heck for most purposes today, many companies offer chips with low-enough power) and extremely cheap - and the determining factor will be software - and software ecosystem. So the company who could come with with a great improvement to productivity and quality of embedded software developmet - and control that tool - would be in a very good place.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- minthd 11y ago
  The languages that fit the web need: extreme simplicity(i.e garbage collection, very high abstraction, very simple to learn) and rapid prototyping(i.e. dynamic typing). The languages that fit micro-controllers will need - no garbage collection(to support real-time), abstraction without loss of performance, high-reliability(it's expensive to fix bugs after shipment). Those differing requirements tend to produce different languages. For example , rust - which embedded developers find very interesting, didn't seems to attract much attention by web developers.
wtallis 11y ago
> Also sleep current is rising greatly as one moves to new nodes - so some micro-controllers will stay on older nodes. How fundamental is this? TSMC has 5 different 28nm processes, so there's obviously some room to adjust things. Can't microcontrollers get effective power gating to keep idle power low when moving to smaller processes?
- minthd 11y ago
  You can't power gate sram, or device state registers. That's like reset.That's a large fraction of the chip. How fundamental - i'm not sure.
- sliverstorm 11y ago
  TSMC can tweak it all they like, but a smaller gate leads to higher leakage currents. Plus popular older nodes are still getting tweaked. That said, you can still attain amazing sleep currents on modern advanced nodes. The catch is just that the best way to do that is with advanced design techniques, which require more design effort.
  - minthd 11y ago
    >> amazing sleep currents on modern advanced nodes. How low sleep current on a 40nm/28nm mcu would be with those advanced techniques ? can youplease estimate ?
    - sliverstorm 11y ago
      Well, anywhere from full power to zero, if you design a chip that can flush its state to persistent storage and go dark. x86 chips exemplify this wide range, with many power states all the way from full power to shutting off the entire package.

by minthd 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

minthd 11y ago
The languages that fit the web need: extreme simplicity(i.e garbage collection, very high abstraction, very simple to learn) and rapid prototyping(i.e. dynamic typing). The languages that fit micro-controllers will need - no garbage collection(to support real-time), abstraction without loss of performance, high-reliability(it's expensive to fix bugs after shipment). Those differing requirements tend to produce different languages. For example , rust - which embedded developers find very interesting, didn't seems to attract much attention by web developers.

wtallis 11y ago

> Also sleep current is rising greatly as one moves to new nodes - so some micro-controllers will stay on older nodes. How fundamental is this? TSMC has 5 different 28nm processes, so there's obviously some room to adjust things. Can't microcontrollers get effective power gating to keep idle power low when moving to smaller processes?

minthd 11y ago
You can't power gate sram, or device state registers. That's like reset.That's a large fraction of the chip. How fundamental - i'm not sure.
sliverstorm 11y ago
TSMC can tweak it all they like, but a smaller gate leads to higher leakage currents. Plus popular older nodes are still getting tweaked. That said, you can still attain amazing sleep currents on modern advanced nodes. The catch is just that the best way to do that is with advanced design techniques, which require more design effort.
- minthd 11y ago
  >> amazing sleep currents on modern advanced nodes. How low sleep current on a 40nm/28nm mcu would be with those advanced techniques ? can youplease estimate ?
  - sliverstorm 11y ago
    Well, anywhere from full power to zero, if you design a chip that can flush its state to persistent storage and go dark. x86 chips exemplify this wide range, with many power states all the way from full power to shutting off the entire package.