6 ms·

This makes me sad in three ways. 1. Hurd is still not here, yet. 2. With Duke Nukem Forever actually finished, and with Perl 6 looking like it might get finis

by krylon 11y ago

This makes me sad in three ways. 1. Hurd is still not here, yet. 2. With Duke Nukem Forever actually finished, and with Perl 6 looking like it might get finished this year, we kind of run out of good jokes to crack about the Hurd. What will be the next killer-app that will run on Hurd out of the box, once it's finished? 3. Unless I've been misinformed, there are multi-server microkernel systems out there that do work. So it's not like the Hurd was a totally misguided idea. And yet, it's still out there, like cold fusion, artificial intelligence and hypo-allergenic kittens, it's tantalizingly out of reach... Well, one day

InTheArena 11y ago
Meanwhile, Linux plays a dominate role in the world with a Kernel that is in absolutely everything. So yeah, Micro-kernels work. But monolithic and simple has been carrying the day for a decade plus. (and before anyone complains about NT, they lost their Microkernel card when the moved graphics into the kernel. They like XNU on the mac are Hybrid Kernels).
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  Actually if we're going purely by adoption rates, the most common kernels are probably some variant of L4 (used in baseband processors among other places) and ITRON in miscellaneous electronics, both of which are microkernels and the latter also an RTOS.
vezzy-fnord 11y ago
As tired as it may sound, I think there just might be a convenient time for the Hurd to rise, albeit in an unconventional way. You already have a de facto GNU OS at the moment in the form of the Guix System Distribution (GuixSD), what with it letting you configure the entire system in Scheme, perform transactional upgrades, system state rollbacks, it has its own init daemon and service scripts in Scheme, etc. At the same time, we've been seeing some efforts in creating tiny builds of the Linux kernel [1] that go as far as to reduce syscalls, VMM algorithms, capabilities, character devices and so forth. There's also the recent Linux libOS effort to create a network stack in userspace as a shared library, though that seems about the extent of it. NetBSD then gives you a userland driver framework with rump kernels. So what one can do is build a really stripped down Linux kernel, write a Mach IPC compatibility layer, run the Hurd servers on top of it and plug in the resulting product with GuixSD. And you now have the complete GNU system. As far as you'll ever get, anyway. This has already been discussed before [2], but it's not something that has ever been given any priority. With the current climate, it might be worth a shot. As to why anyone would want to do this... well, for one you get a full OS that is entirely configurable in Scheme with all of its services running as userland file servers (translators) in a sort of Plan 9-ish way, all the while supporting the Linux API. That's still pretty ahead of GNU/Linux. The Hurd also has features like running multiple instances of itself in user mode (subhurds) that can serve a similar purpose to containers. It's obvious no one's going to port the Hurd servers away from GNU Mach, so this is the best shot anyone has. Any Hurd or Guix devs in here to comment on this? [1] https://tiny.wiki.kernel.org/ https://tiny.wiki.kernel.org/ [2] https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/open_issues/linux_as_the_kernel.html https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/open_issues/linux_as_the_k...
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  I'm not Hurd supporter but that's an interesting idea. I'd say replace Scheme with Python or something mainstream that's similarly powerful. Adding LISP to stuff usually kills it off unfortunately, with Clojure a freak occurrence. The transactional upgrades and rollbacks feature by itself would be compelling to some audiences.
  - rekado 11y ago
    "Adding LISP to stuff usually kills it off" What? Oh, you mean like Emacs. Scheme is a beautiful language; it's flexible and trivial to learn. Replacing it with Python would be silly. Besides, Guile Scheme is the designated extension language of the GNU system. Gnucash, dmd (the init system), the Gimp, Guix, gEDA and many more GNU applications all can be hacked in or extended with Guile. In the GNU system Guile Scheme is "mainstream".
    - nickpsecurity 11y ago
      "Oh, you mean like Emacs." No I mean like... surveys the market... nearly everything else. The LISP field is almost non-existent outside of academia and a few companies. Almost nothing mainstream in proprietary or FOSS is built with it. Plus, most programmers hate it. So, using something like in a FOSS app intended to go mainstream is quite a risk. "Besides, Guile Scheme is the designated extension language of the GNU system." Oh Ok. That they're pushing people to use an unpopular language at least explains why the apps you cited used it. " In the GNU system Guile Scheme is "mainstream"." Nah, most programmers haven't heard of it. Of those that have, I'd bank on only a subset even using it. I'd say it's used by a tiny set of developers, esp extension builders. And for tools who mostly each represent a small amount of developers or users. You're really making my point for me by redefining the word mainstream to be "barely known software barely making it with a few exceptions." They should consider something that actually is mainstream as an experiment in increasing adoption. Probably some other things to reconsider while they're at it.
      - rurban 11y ago
pjmlp 11y ago
Maybe if the likes of Intel and IBM had decided to put their employees on Hurd instead of Linux, the story would be different.
Frondo 11y ago
As an aside, you can have a hypo-allergenic kitten today! Behold, the Siberian Forest Cat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_cat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_cat I had one of these, and she was a remarkable cat. Very active, very engaged, loved to play fetch, and unbelievable amounts of fur. My allergic-to-cats friends were totally fine around her, too!
nickpsecurity 11y ago
Duke Nukem Forever shipped before Hurd. Duke Nukem Forever itself had some... delays [1]. Yet, it got done before Hurd and had 376,000+ installs. You've put Hurd's situation into perspective in a way I didn't think possible. Just wow. [1] http://news.softpedia.com/news/What-Happened-Since-Duke-Nukem-Forever-Was-Announced-46340.shtml http://news.softpedia.com/news/What-Happened-Since-Duke-Nuke...
- agumonkey 11y ago
  The fun part is that DNF was delayed because of too much money. The HURD didn't need money for that. GNU owns.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    I think the team rolling in the money while delivering nothing was probably their end game. HURD's end game was delivering something that worked. In that case, the DNF team owns. :P

by krylon 11y ago

InTheArena 11y ago

Meanwhile, Linux plays a dominate role in the world with a Kernel that is in absolutely everything. So yeah, Micro-kernels work. But monolithic and simple has been carrying the day for a decade plus. (and before anyone complains about NT, they lost their Microkernel card when the moved graphics into the kernel. They like XNU on the mac are Hybrid Kernels).

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
Actually if we're going purely by adoption rates, the most common kernels are probably some variant of L4 (used in baseband processors among other places) and ITRON in miscellaneous electronics, both of which are microkernels and the latter also an RTOS.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago

As tired as it may sound, I think there just might be a convenient time for the Hurd to rise, albeit in an unconventional way. You already have a de facto GNU OS at the moment in the form of the Guix System Distribution (GuixSD), what with it letting you configure the entire system in Scheme, perform transactional upgrades, system state rollbacks, it has its own init daemon and service scripts in Scheme, etc. At the same time, we've been seeing some efforts in creating tiny builds of the Linux kernel [1] that go as far as to reduce syscalls, VMM algorithms, capabilities, character devices and so forth. There's also the recent Linux libOS effort to create a network stack in userspace as a shared library, though that seems about the extent of it. NetBSD then gives you a userland driver framework with rump kernels. So what one can do is build a really stripped down Linux kernel, write a Mach IPC compatibility layer, run the Hurd servers on top of it and plug in the resulting product with GuixSD. And you now have the complete GNU system. As far as you'll ever get, anyway. This has already been discussed before [2], but it's not something that has ever been given any priority. With the current climate, it might be worth a shot. As to why anyone would want to do this... well, for one you get a full OS that is entirely configurable in Scheme with all of its services running as userland file servers (translators) in a sort of Plan 9-ish way, all the while supporting the Linux API. That's still pretty ahead of GNU/Linux. The Hurd also has features like running multiple instances of itself in user mode (subhurds) that can serve a similar purpose to containers. It's obvious no one's going to port the Hurd servers away from GNU Mach, so this is the best shot anyone has. Any Hurd or Guix devs in here to comment on this? [1] https://tiny.wiki.kernel.org/ https://tiny.wiki.kernel.org/ [2] https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/open_issues/linux_as_the_kernel.html https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/open_issues/linux_as_the_k...

nickpsecurity 11y ago
I'm not Hurd supporter but that's an interesting idea. I'd say replace Scheme with Python or something mainstream that's similarly powerful. Adding LISP to stuff usually kills it off unfortunately, with Clojure a freak occurrence. The transactional upgrades and rollbacks feature by itself would be compelling to some audiences.
- rekado 11y ago
  "Adding LISP to stuff usually kills it off" What? Oh, you mean like Emacs. Scheme is a beautiful language; it's flexible and trivial to learn. Replacing it with Python would be silly. Besides, Guile Scheme is the designated extension language of the GNU system. Gnucash, dmd (the init system), the Gimp, Guix, gEDA and many more GNU applications all can be hacked in or extended with Guile. In the GNU system Guile Scheme is "mainstream".
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    "Oh, you mean like Emacs." No I mean like... surveys the market... nearly everything else. The LISP field is almost non-existent outside of academia and a few companies. Almost nothing mainstream in proprietary or FOSS is built with it. Plus, most programmers hate it. So, using something like in a FOSS app intended to go mainstream is quite a risk. "Besides, Guile Scheme is the designated extension language of the GNU system." Oh Ok. That they're pushing people to use an unpopular language at least explains why the apps you cited used it. " In the GNU system Guile Scheme is "mainstream"." Nah, most programmers haven't heard of it. Of those that have, I'd bank on only a subset even using it. I'd say it's used by a tiny set of developers, esp extension builders. And for tools who mostly each represent a small amount of developers or users. You're really making my point for me by redefining the word mainstream to be "barely known software barely making it with a few exceptions." They should consider something that actually is mainstream as an experiment in increasing adoption. Probably some other things to reconsider while they're at it.
    - rurban 11y ago

pjmlp 11y ago

Maybe if the likes of Intel and IBM had decided to put their employees on Hurd instead of Linux, the story would be different.

Frondo 11y ago

As an aside, you can have a hypo-allergenic kitten today! Behold, the Siberian Forest Cat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_cat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_cat I had one of these, and she was a remarkable cat. Very active, very engaged, loved to play fetch, and unbelievable amounts of fur. My allergic-to-cats friends were totally fine around her, too!

nickpsecurity 11y ago

Duke Nukem Forever shipped before Hurd. Duke Nukem Forever itself had some... delays [1]. Yet, it got done before Hurd and had 376,000+ installs. You've put Hurd's situation into perspective in a way I didn't think possible. Just wow. [1] http://news.softpedia.com/news/What-Happened-Since-Duke-Nukem-Forever-Was-Announced-46340.shtml http://news.softpedia.com/news/What-Happened-Since-Duke-Nuke...

agumonkey 11y ago
The fun part is that DNF was delayed because of too much money. The HURD didn't need money for that. GNU owns.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  I think the team rolling in the money while delivering nothing was probably their end game. HURD's end game was delivering something that worked. In that case, the DNF team owns. :P