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This is exactly the problem. By saying something is 'inherent' you are essentially saying that there can be no debate on the issue. I believe that the whole not

by dejb 17y ago

This is exactly the problem. By saying something is 'inherent' you are essentially saying that there can be no debate on the issue. I believe that the whole notion of 'privacy' is actually a learned social construct, not something inborn like physical pain.

zmimon 17y ago
> I believe that the whole notion of 'privacy' is actually a learned social construct I, and many others, including Schneier think you are wrong. Privacy is a basic human need, a fundamental part of our psychology that is as deeply entrenched as all our other basic needs and emotions. We are not whole, happy, fulfilled human beings without it. I guess one can debate whether this fits the definition of "inherent" or not. But I don't think it's necessary to pursue it beyond this point because it doesn't really matter - once something is a basic human need, taking it away from them is wrong.
- dejb 17y ago
  > Privacy is a basic human need, a fundamental part of our psychology that is as deeply entrenched as all our other basic needs and emotions. That is an assumption not an argument. Can you reference any studies or data to support your position? The only place to find evidence I can think of would be to look at different cultures with differing level of privacy to see what inherent 'needs' there might be and what the results were in terms of people's mental well being. Totalitarian societies would not be a good example as they actually rely far more of secrecy than more open societies. I would argue (without data I admit) that the desire for privacy is actually caused by the desire to avoid punishment, ridicule and/or social exclusion. If these could be avoided then I don't believe there would be much of a 'need' for privacy.
  - zmimon 17y ago
    > I would argue (without data I admit) that the desire for privacy is actually caused by the desire to avoid punishment, ridicule and/or social exclusion. If these could be avoided then I don't believe there would be much of a 'need' for privacy. I think you deconstruct things far too much. If you removed all those things from society right now people would still "need" privacy because we have been programmed by thousands or millions of years of evolution to need it. We don't need it on a rational basis (although there are plenty of rational arguments one can make for needing it), we need it because our brains evolved that way and we're stuck with it. If you find a culture that has no privacy and no compensatory substitute for it then I'll readily grant that people in that society don't need privacy and we can qualify "basic human need" to something slightly more constrained. But it won't change the fact that we are stuck in a situation where the vast majority of human beings DO need privacy and it is wrong to take it away from them.
    - dejb 17y ago
      > because we have been programmed by thousands or millions of years of evolution to need it. Actually I think our early ancestors would have lived with much less privacy than we do today. Many of the concepts of privacy don't even make sense the further back you go. Living in a tribe, spending nearly all your time outside and visible to other tribe members, with no/limited clothing, sleeping in large groups would offer limited opportunities for privacy. If anything I would think that many of the traits of 'privacy' would have evolved more from the desire of others not to have to experience the 'private' matters of their fellow tribe members (i.e. see them having sex/naked/aroused or be interrupted by their loud conversations). Even now they say that in small towns 'everyone knows everything about everyone else'. Only with the anonymizing effects of very large groups is the modern concept of privacy possible. So to me this all suggests that the 'need for privacy' is not a innate. > But it won't change the fact that we are stuck in a situation where the vast majority of human beings DO need privacy and it is wrong to take it away from them. I would argue that this is true primarily because of people's upbringing - in the same way that it would cause people discomfort to have to adjust to a world where they would routinely be naked in public.
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      > because we have been programmed by thousands or millions of years of evolution to need it. Privacy seems a modern phenomena. Your really going to have to cite studies to be honest... > we are stuck in a situation where the vast majority of human beings DO need privacy and it is wrong to take it away from them. Look at Facebook. There are lots of fairly complete options for privacy there. And yet most people don't even bother locking up their settings. Given a choice, it seems, they aren't too worried.
netcan 17y ago
I agree it's problematic. But whenever you get fundamental about moral issues you face these problems. Causing pain is bad. making people happy is good. Freedom is good. Equality is good. Discrimination is bad. You can try and justify any of these for other reasons. Discrimination creates civil unrest, it wastes some people's talents, it leads to civil conflict, etc. I think those are less satisfying. Discrimination bothers me regardless of its consequences. I don't necessarily agree with Schneir I just think you have to admit some* arguments that things are inherent. We can reject this. Say that our inherently good/bad baskets are ful & that he'd better justify his need for privacy based on those inherently bad/good things.
- dejb 17y ago
  I can agree that inherent feelings towards these sort of issues may exist but even then you can't assume everyone has the same inherent notions. For example historically a lot of people obviously found 'discrimination' to be OK/desirable and they found homosexuality to be abhorrent. They could just as easily use the 'inherent' argument to back up their case. I personally think that the further you go away from direct sensation (causing pain/injury etc) the more difficult it become to disentangle inherent and learned attitudes. Even with pain their are sadists and masochists who do not seem to share the normal response. So while arguments based on our own 'inherent principles' may resonate with others (especially those in our self selected groups) we should be very careful before assuming that these are universal.
  - netcan 17y ago
    We are getting into a slightly subtle territory here, but basically what I am saying is "Yes, inherent is a problem. But, we usually can't avoid it when we are talking about morally fundamental things." The subtle place we parted (I think) is where you interpreted "inherent" as meaning something about people, their feelings, attitudes, etc. I (he, really) meant it in a more abstract sense. I'm not sure if this is something that reflects your general world-view, but you are taking a very relativist position. You are equating moral with subjective attitudes. That is OK of course, but it is a minority view. (BTW, I'm not agreeing with the author, just commenting on the position he has taken)

by dejb 17y ago

zmimon 17y ago

> I believe that the whole notion of 'privacy' is actually a learned social construct I, and many others, including Schneier think you are wrong. Privacy is a basic human need, a fundamental part of our psychology that is as deeply entrenched as all our other basic needs and emotions. We are not whole, happy, fulfilled human beings without it. I guess one can debate whether this fits the definition of "inherent" or not. But I don't think it's necessary to pursue it beyond this point because it doesn't really matter - once something is a basic human need, taking it away from them is wrong.

dejb 17y ago
> Privacy is a basic human need, a fundamental part of our psychology that is as deeply entrenched as all our other basic needs and emotions. That is an assumption not an argument. Can you reference any studies or data to support your position? The only place to find evidence I can think of would be to look at different cultures with differing level of privacy to see what inherent 'needs' there might be and what the results were in terms of people's mental well being. Totalitarian societies would not be a good example as they actually rely far more of secrecy than more open societies. I would argue (without data I admit) that the desire for privacy is actually caused by the desire to avoid punishment, ridicule and/or social exclusion. If these could be avoided then I don't believe there would be much of a 'need' for privacy.
- zmimon 17y ago
  > I would argue (without data I admit) that the desire for privacy is actually caused by the desire to avoid punishment, ridicule and/or social exclusion. If these could be avoided then I don't believe there would be much of a 'need' for privacy. I think you deconstruct things far too much. If you removed all those things from society right now people would still "need" privacy because we have been programmed by thousands or millions of years of evolution to need it. We don't need it on a rational basis (although there are plenty of rational arguments one can make for needing it), we need it because our brains evolved that way and we're stuck with it. If you find a culture that has no privacy and no compensatory substitute for it then I'll readily grant that people in that society don't need privacy and we can qualify "basic human need" to something slightly more constrained. But it won't change the fact that we are stuck in a situation where the vast majority of human beings DO need privacy and it is wrong to take it away from them.
  - dejb 17y ago
    > because we have been programmed by thousands or millions of years of evolution to need it. Actually I think our early ancestors would have lived with much less privacy than we do today. Many of the concepts of privacy don't even make sense the further back you go. Living in a tribe, spending nearly all your time outside and visible to other tribe members, with no/limited clothing, sleeping in large groups would offer limited opportunities for privacy. If anything I would think that many of the traits of 'privacy' would have evolved more from the desire of others not to have to experience the 'private' matters of their fellow tribe members (i.e. see them having sex/naked/aroused or be interrupted by their loud conversations). Even now they say that in small towns 'everyone knows everything about everyone else'. Only with the anonymizing effects of very large groups is the modern concept of privacy possible. So to me this all suggests that the 'need for privacy' is not a innate. > But it won't change the fact that we are stuck in a situation where the vast majority of human beings DO need privacy and it is wrong to take it away from them. I would argue that this is true primarily because of people's upbringing - in the same way that it would cause people discomfort to have to adjust to a world where they would routinely be naked in public.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    > because we have been programmed by thousands or millions of years of evolution to need it. Privacy seems a modern phenomena. Your really going to have to cite studies to be honest... > we are stuck in a situation where the vast majority of human beings DO need privacy and it is wrong to take it away from them. Look at Facebook. There are lots of fairly complete options for privacy there. And yet most people don't even bother locking up their settings. Given a choice, it seems, they aren't too worried.

netcan 17y ago

I agree it's problematic. But whenever you get fundamental about moral issues you face these problems. Causing pain is bad. making people happy is good. Freedom is good. Equality is good. Discrimination is bad. You can try and justify any of these for other reasons. Discrimination creates civil unrest, it wastes some people's talents, it leads to civil conflict, etc. I think those are less satisfying. Discrimination bothers me regardless of its consequences. I don't necessarily agree with Schneir I just think you have to admit some* arguments that things are inherent. We can reject this. Say that our inherently good/bad baskets are ful & that he'd better justify his need for privacy based on those inherently bad/good things.

dejb 17y ago
I can agree that inherent feelings towards these sort of issues may exist but even then you can't assume everyone has the same inherent notions. For example historically a lot of people obviously found 'discrimination' to be OK/desirable and they found homosexuality to be abhorrent. They could just as easily use the 'inherent' argument to back up their case. I personally think that the further you go away from direct sensation (causing pain/injury etc) the more difficult it become to disentangle inherent and learned attitudes. Even with pain their are sadists and masochists who do not seem to share the normal response. So while arguments based on our own 'inherent principles' may resonate with others (especially those in our self selected groups) we should be very careful before assuming that these are universal.
- netcan 17y ago
  We are getting into a slightly subtle territory here, but basically what I am saying is "Yes, inherent is a problem. But, we usually can't avoid it when we are talking about morally fundamental things." The subtle place we parted (I think) is where you interpreted "inherent" as meaning something about people, their feelings, attitudes, etc. I (he, really) meant it in a more abstract sense. I'm not sure if this is something that reflects your general world-view, but you are taking a very relativist position. You are equating moral with subjective attitudes. That is OK of course, but it is a minority view. (BTW, I'm not agreeing with the author, just commenting on the position he has taken)