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"Algorithms that can write heartfelt posts like yours will be developed one day." I don't find it hard to assume that algorithms will one day be able to write

by garyrob 11y ago

"Algorithms that can write heartfelt posts like yours will be developed one day." I don't find it hard to assume that algorithms will one day be able to write posts that an observer may classify as seeming to be heartfelt. But that doesn't mean that the machine actually experienced anything in writing it. That it's "heartfelt"-seeming post was actually felt by the algorithm at all. "This is literally the point of Turing's thought experiment: if a machine gives you answers indistinguishable from a human, is it alive?" Turing assumed it was. I think the issues are orthogonal. If it is indistinguishable by a human, all that means that I can see is that it's a very effective mimic, not that it has awareness.

Tiksi 11y ago
And how do you know that a human experienced anything while writing a "heartfelt-seeming" post? Do you think that everyone reading that experienced it as heartfelt? Did you have the "awareness" that it was heartfelt from birth, or did you only know that because you can recognize that it's much like other writing described as "heartfelt", that is, is it something you learned? If you did in fact learn it, which I assume you did, since we're not born knowing language or even what heartfelt means, why do think that an AI couldn't learn the same? Do you think that how you "experience" it is universal to all humans? Or does it come from things you've encountered in the past. Regarding your argument about being aware of the color yellow upthread, have you asked someone that is red-green colorblind how they tell the difference or how they experience red and green? It's clearly not the same as people who can see the full "visible spectrum", so do they not have awareness of those colors? In the past when I asked a friend of mine who is red-green colorblind how he can distinguish the difference, he told me it was because he'd seen things people call red or green in the past. I asked if it was the same as the difference between colors, he said yes, but more like the difference between teal and a slightly different teal. So if you were never told what yellow is, would you be aware of it, or just know it as a slightly different orange? Personally, I know what colors are only because I know what other things of the same color look like, the same wavelength hits my retina so I know that it's the same color. How is this any different from an AI recognizing that?
- garyrob 11y ago
  "And how do you know that a human experienced anything while writing a "heartfelt-seeming" post?" Because I wrote that original post, and I had experiences while writing it. I know that from direct observation and I don't need other evidence. "Regarding your argument about being aware of the color yellow upthread, have you asked someone that is red-green colorblind how they tell the difference or how they experience red and green? It's clearly not the same as people who can see the full "visible spectrum", so do they not have awareness of those colors??" Yes, I was wondering if someone would bring that up, but my point wasn't that they have the exact same experience of yellow as me, but rather that they have an experience of a color (or sound, or taste, or anything) at all. And sure, some people experience fewer colors. That doesn't change the argument. "I asked if it was the same as the difference between colors, he said yes, but more like the difference between teal and a slightly different teal." Interesting!
  - Tiksi 11y ago
    > Because I wrote that original post, and I had experiences while writing it. Well I said "a" heartfelt seeming post, not that specific one. If an AI told me the same thing, what difference would that make? I have nothing but the word of the author. How do I know you're not just an AI, and does it make any difference if you used neurons or transistors to come up with the concepts expressed? To me, the difference is meaningless. > but rather that they have an experience of a color But what defines that experience? Is it not just a wavelength of light hitting your eye, and your brain interpreting it? I also find it interesting that you addressed the questions that were easy to refute, and left most of them unanswered. I am genuinely curious on your thoughts, as I find your conclusions as mystifying as you find mine. EDIT: > And sure, some people experience fewer colors. Ah, but do they experience fewer colors, or do they experience them differently? Since the wavelength of a color isn't what defines experiencing it, then what does? And surely you can't say they don't experience it just because of the wavelength.
- filoeleven 11y ago
  > So if you were never told what yellow is, would you be aware of it, or just know it as a slightly different orange? This question was asked and answered concerning blue and green: "The Himba tribe from northern Namibia, for instance, does not classify green and blue separately, the way Westerners do, but it does differentiate among various shades of what we call green. And when tested, members of the tribe, who are likely to have trouble with blue-green distinctions that most Westerners make easily, readily distinguish among greens that tend to look the same to Western eyes." http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/04/its-not-easy-seeing-green/?_r=0 http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/04/its-not-easy-se...

by garyrob 11y ago

Tiksi 11y ago

And how do you know that a human experienced anything while writing a "heartfelt-seeming" post? Do you think that everyone reading that experienced it as heartfelt? Did you have the "awareness" that it was heartfelt from birth, or did you only know that because you can recognize that it's much like other writing described as "heartfelt", that is, is it something you learned? If you did in fact learn it, which I assume you did, since we're not born knowing language or even what heartfelt means, why do think that an AI couldn't learn the same? Do you think that how you "experience" it is universal to all humans? Or does it come from things you've encountered in the past. Regarding your argument about being aware of the color yellow upthread, have you asked someone that is red-green colorblind how they tell the difference or how they experience red and green? It's clearly not the same as people who can see the full "visible spectrum", so do they not have awareness of those colors? In the past when I asked a friend of mine who is red-green colorblind how he can distinguish the difference, he told me it was because he'd seen things people call red or green in the past. I asked if it was the same as the difference between colors, he said yes, but more like the difference between teal and a slightly different teal. So if you were never told what yellow is, would you be aware of it, or just know it as a slightly different orange? Personally, I know what colors are only because I know what other things of the same color look like, the same wavelength hits my retina so I know that it's the same color. How is this any different from an AI recognizing that?

garyrob 11y ago
"And how do you know that a human experienced anything while writing a "heartfelt-seeming" post?" Because I wrote that original post, and I had experiences while writing it. I know that from direct observation and I don't need other evidence. "Regarding your argument about being aware of the color yellow upthread, have you asked someone that is red-green colorblind how they tell the difference or how they experience red and green? It's clearly not the same as people who can see the full "visible spectrum", so do they not have awareness of those colors??" Yes, I was wondering if someone would bring that up, but my point wasn't that they have the exact same experience of yellow as me, but rather that they have an experience of a color (or sound, or taste, or anything) at all. And sure, some people experience fewer colors. That doesn't change the argument. "I asked if it was the same as the difference between colors, he said yes, but more like the difference between teal and a slightly different teal." Interesting!
- Tiksi 11y ago
  > Because I wrote that original post, and I had experiences while writing it. Well I said "a" heartfelt seeming post, not that specific one. If an AI told me the same thing, what difference would that make? I have nothing but the word of the author. How do I know you're not just an AI, and does it make any difference if you used neurons or transistors to come up with the concepts expressed? To me, the difference is meaningless. > but rather that they have an experience of a color But what defines that experience? Is it not just a wavelength of light hitting your eye, and your brain interpreting it? I also find it interesting that you addressed the questions that were easy to refute, and left most of them unanswered. I am genuinely curious on your thoughts, as I find your conclusions as mystifying as you find mine. EDIT: > And sure, some people experience fewer colors. Ah, but do they experience fewer colors, or do they experience them differently? Since the wavelength of a color isn't what defines experiencing it, then what does? And surely you can't say they don't experience it just because of the wavelength.
filoeleven 11y ago
> So if you were never told what yellow is, would you be aware of it, or just know it as a slightly different orange? This question was asked and answered concerning blue and green: "The Himba tribe from northern Namibia, for instance, does not classify green and blue separately, the way Westerners do, but it does differentiate among various shades of what we call green. And when tested, members of the tribe, who are likely to have trouble with blue-green distinctions that most Westerners make easily, readily distinguish among greens that tend to look the same to Western eyes." http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/04/its-not-easy-seeing-green/?_r=0 http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/04/its-not-easy-se...