5 ms·

The thing I dislike about this article, as somebody who as experiment with ketamine (I took it twice two years ago, and then twice last month) is that the artic

The thing I dislike about this article, as somebody who as experiment with ketamine (I took it twice two years ago, and then twice last month) is that the article's presentation implicitly vilifies ketamine a tad.

joeyo 11y ago
It's not all fun and games: ketamine will eventually destroy your bladder.
- efng 11y ago
  Yes it will,if you do 5 grams a day - which is a ridiculous amount. If you are doing that much, you might in fact be a horse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Urinary_tract_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Urinary_tract_effects
  - kevinnk 11y ago
    > All reported cases where the user consumed greater than 5 g/day reported symptoms of the lower urinary tract. That only implies that if you do 5g/day, you will with near certainty get urinary tract problems. You can definitely get get urinary tract problems with much lower dosages.
  - glomph 11y ago
    It is a pretty standard problem with people that get heavy into ketamine though.
  - antihero 11y ago
    Nah, I've had plenty of mates that have done far far less than that (a few grammes on the weekend for a while) that have totally fucked their bladders.
  - de_Selby 11y ago
    You don't have to do anything close to that for it to destroy your UT. More like a couple years of occasional recreational use. It's a huge problem with younger people who use the drug recreationally.
  - jawr 11y ago
    I'm pretty sure the way in which you deliver the drug is the biggest variable as to how much damage it causes. The article briefly touched upon it; most illegal ketamine comes in a crystal form and needs rehydrating (cooking), most people do not rehydrate the ketamine and instead just crush it. Taking this instead of hydrated ketamine is much more detrimental to the bladder/ut.
    - shabble 11y ago
      I think you might have it backwards. Legitimately manufactured ketamine is typically in sterile saline solution at a fixed quantity per dose. This is because the usual medical route of administration is intra-muscular or intravenous injection. For recreational use, (afaik) the majority is insufflated, or snorted. For this you need the dry, crystallised form. You can either purchase it as crystal from your friendly neighbourhood drug dealer, or they may be able to supply you with vials diverted from veterinary or medical suppliers. To get this to a powder, you boil off the water "Cooking" and are left with a mixture of ketamine and salt. The 2 biggest problems are trying to either rehydrate crystal powder for injection (because ensuring sterility and consistent dosage is hard), and that crystals are much easier to cut with other ingredients (because the legit. vials usually have tamperproof seals like other legitimate drugs). The other point is that most people won't be injecting it right from the beginning. Only once they become tolerant and require high doses does the appeal of IM/IV's increased 'efficiency' (bioavailability) tend to override the common wisdom of not sticking needles in oneself. From what I recall, most of the research has shown that long-term administration of high doses is where the damage is predominantly done, and even very high doses (1000mg would be a plausible dose for 'short term surgical anesthesia (15-25 mins) of an 80kg adult), if given very rarely, are not likely to cause harm. But injecting that sort of quantity, multiple times a day, for weeks or months, is absolutely going to lead to problems, and even more of them if you're getting impurities or bacteria/spores along due to contamination.
      - jawr 11y ago
        I'm only speaking from personal experience, unfortunately I have friends that have been abusing this drugs for almost 2 decades (none that inject so I can not speak about that). I might have my terminology mixed up, but there is definitely a difference between crystallised and that which has been cooked (possibly again). Some of it might possibly be myth on there behalf, as in they don't get as bad a "k belly" or irritated bladder after a binge on the latter. As well as the bladder/ut issues, snorting (anything) also leads to the corrosion of the septum and also the bone(s) that supports teeth.. Basically excessive use leads to teeth falling out.
- ghshephard 11y ago
  A lot of drugs out there, crack, heroin, cocaine, heck, even MDMA will do damage eventually if you use it in large enough doses. For that matter, legal drugs like smoked cigarettes and alcohol have long time negative consequences with regular use. I agree with the parent, this whole desire to vilify the monster-du-jour sometimes gets out of the hand, with the MSM frequently playing the willing companion to whatever government propaganda of the day is in vogue. Can these drugs do damage if abused? Yes. So teach people not to abuse them, and, those who do, or become addicted, have medical issues that should be treated as such. I'm willing to wager that not only would drug abuse come down, as light was shone on addicts rather than making them hide in the dark, but we'd also see reduced prison populations, and entirely eliminate a major source of income to criminal gangs. This is probably the 1 Billionth+ time someone has made this argument on a forum though, so I don't hold out to much hope until the winds of sanity for, whatever strange reason they do, blow in that particular direction.
  - smcl 11y ago
    Just to add a little factoid that doesn't disagree with your comment, but which some folks might find interesting: while heroin is an extremely bad thing you shouldn't get into and goes hand in hand with a lot of other bad things, it has a frighteningly minimal impact to the body/organs on its own. Physical dependence + tolerance and no small level of constipation in the short term, but not much else.
    - marincounty 11y ago
      Years ago I heard Dr. Dean Edell(a U.S. Doctor, media personality, and a rational guy--whom other doctors admit to listening to-), say this, 'If I was going to be addicted to any drug--it would probally be Opioids? It does the least damage.' I'll always remember that statement, but I think he meant in a perfect world(where you could get legal, pharmaceutical grade product)? The addicts, I know, have so many ancillary diseases, and health problems--I don't think I would ever try it--even once. (I imagine the health problems are due to dirty needles, and unknown handling, and "cutting" of the drug?)
- rwmj 11y ago
  Alcohol can damage the bladder and bladder control in several different ways.
throwaway3452 11y ago
The dangers are real. I've known multiple recreational users come close to death from ketamine addiction, either from the effects or from general self-neglect. The problems are threefold: firstly, it does not impair you to the extent that you cannot "live," you can still limp along through a normal life high out of your mind on ketamine every day. This means it is not self-limiting in any way, and people are not forced to change until they are seriously ill. Secondly, the tolerance curve is very steep. If you use it just a few times in a week, the very next week you will need to consume noticeably more. It continues in a sort of hockey-stick arrangement. This is how people suddenly end up on 5g a day, destroying their urinary tract with this caustic, highly alkaline stuff. Thirdly, some people seem to just really like it. Ketamine has a subtle psychological effect that really seems to resonate with some people. I guess this is why its connected to long term depression treatment. Unfortunately when combined with the other two factors I have listed, it becomes a trap into which people can fall for a long time. Especially the young. It's basically halfway between marijuana and heroin. It's as destructive as that sounds. For the record, I'm in favor of the freedom to use drugs, but ketamine is nasty stuff.
eyeJam 11y ago
I am reminded while reading this article, that there exists hundreds of thousands of "casual" cocaine users who are capable of using for short periods of time, even a single night, and then getting on with their lives. This is supported by statistics[1], but also my personal experience of knowing plenty of successful ambitious people who will occasionally take a weekend off and consume psychedelics, or MDMA, or split a gram of coke between friends for a night. In fact I think it's safe to say that the majority of cocaine users don't become regular users with expensive and costly habits. Of course no one ever writes lengthy exposés about the occasional users because that wouldn't fit the narrative that has been playing on loop for the last 40 years: "all drugs are bad and even one single use will lead to your ruin". It's people who are suffering from mental illness or who live in conditions that cause them mental anguish who usually become addicted to drugs in general. It's a form of escape and the community that dulls their pain. The sooner we can start having sane, even-handed discussions about drugs the sooner we can start solving the root of the problem, which is not drugs, but mental illness and mental wellbeing. Sensationalist stories such as this one that completely ignore >90% of drug users and focuses only on the ones' whose stories are worth exploiting for clicks are not helping. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/jun/29/drugs-cocaine-environment-fair-trade http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/jun/29/drugs-c... He cites 12:1, casual to addicted, in the USA.
- dreamfactory2 11y ago
  what does cocaine have to do with it?

joeyo 11y ago

It's not all fun and games: ketamine will eventually destroy your bladder.

efng 11y ago
Yes it will,if you do 5 grams a day - which is a ridiculous amount. If you are doing that much, you might in fact be a horse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Urinary_tract_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Urinary_tract_effects
- kevinnk 11y ago
  > All reported cases where the user consumed greater than 5 g/day reported symptoms of the lower urinary tract. That only implies that if you do 5g/day, you will with near certainty get urinary tract problems. You can definitely get get urinary tract problems with much lower dosages.
- glomph 11y ago
  It is a pretty standard problem with people that get heavy into ketamine though.
- antihero 11y ago
  Nah, I've had plenty of mates that have done far far less than that (a few grammes on the weekend for a while) that have totally fucked their bladders.
- de_Selby 11y ago
  You don't have to do anything close to that for it to destroy your UT. More like a couple years of occasional recreational use. It's a huge problem with younger people who use the drug recreationally.
- jawr 11y ago
  I'm pretty sure the way in which you deliver the drug is the biggest variable as to how much damage it causes. The article briefly touched upon it; most illegal ketamine comes in a crystal form and needs rehydrating (cooking), most people do not rehydrate the ketamine and instead just crush it. Taking this instead of hydrated ketamine is much more detrimental to the bladder/ut.
  - shabble 11y ago
    I think you might have it backwards. Legitimately manufactured ketamine is typically in sterile saline solution at a fixed quantity per dose. This is because the usual medical route of administration is intra-muscular or intravenous injection. For recreational use, (afaik) the majority is insufflated, or snorted. For this you need the dry, crystallised form. You can either purchase it as crystal from your friendly neighbourhood drug dealer, or they may be able to supply you with vials diverted from veterinary or medical suppliers. To get this to a powder, you boil off the water "Cooking" and are left with a mixture of ketamine and salt. The 2 biggest problems are trying to either rehydrate crystal powder for injection (because ensuring sterility and consistent dosage is hard), and that crystals are much easier to cut with other ingredients (because the legit. vials usually have tamperproof seals like other legitimate drugs). The other point is that most people won't be injecting it right from the beginning. Only once they become tolerant and require high doses does the appeal of IM/IV's increased 'efficiency' (bioavailability) tend to override the common wisdom of not sticking needles in oneself. From what I recall, most of the research has shown that long-term administration of high doses is where the damage is predominantly done, and even very high doses (1000mg would be a plausible dose for 'short term surgical anesthesia (15-25 mins) of an 80kg adult), if given very rarely, are not likely to cause harm. But injecting that sort of quantity, multiple times a day, for weeks or months, is absolutely going to lead to problems, and even more of them if you're getting impurities or bacteria/spores along due to contamination.
    - jawr 11y ago
      I'm only speaking from personal experience, unfortunately I have friends that have been abusing this drugs for almost 2 decades (none that inject so I can not speak about that). I might have my terminology mixed up, but there is definitely a difference between crystallised and that which has been cooked (possibly again). Some of it might possibly be myth on there behalf, as in they don't get as bad a "k belly" or irritated bladder after a binge on the latter. As well as the bladder/ut issues, snorting (anything) also leads to the corrosion of the septum and also the bone(s) that supports teeth.. Basically excessive use leads to teeth falling out.
ghshephard 11y ago
A lot of drugs out there, crack, heroin, cocaine, heck, even MDMA will do damage eventually if you use it in large enough doses. For that matter, legal drugs like smoked cigarettes and alcohol have long time negative consequences with regular use. I agree with the parent, this whole desire to vilify the monster-du-jour sometimes gets out of the hand, with the MSM frequently playing the willing companion to whatever government propaganda of the day is in vogue. Can these drugs do damage if abused? Yes. So teach people not to abuse them, and, those who do, or become addicted, have medical issues that should be treated as such. I'm willing to wager that not only would drug abuse come down, as light was shone on addicts rather than making them hide in the dark, but we'd also see reduced prison populations, and entirely eliminate a major source of income to criminal gangs. This is probably the 1 Billionth+ time someone has made this argument on a forum though, so I don't hold out to much hope until the winds of sanity for, whatever strange reason they do, blow in that particular direction.
- smcl 11y ago
  Just to add a little factoid that doesn't disagree with your comment, but which some folks might find interesting: while heroin is an extremely bad thing you shouldn't get into and goes hand in hand with a lot of other bad things, it has a frighteningly minimal impact to the body/organs on its own. Physical dependence + tolerance and no small level of constipation in the short term, but not much else.
  - marincounty 11y ago
    Years ago I heard Dr. Dean Edell(a U.S. Doctor, media personality, and a rational guy--whom other doctors admit to listening to-), say this, 'If I was going to be addicted to any drug--it would probally be Opioids? It does the least damage.' I'll always remember that statement, but I think he meant in a perfect world(where you could get legal, pharmaceutical grade product)? The addicts, I know, have so many ancillary diseases, and health problems--I don't think I would ever try it--even once. (I imagine the health problems are due to dirty needles, and unknown handling, and "cutting" of the drug?)
rwmj 11y ago
Alcohol can damage the bladder and bladder control in several different ways.

throwaway3452 11y ago

The dangers are real. I've known multiple recreational users come close to death from ketamine addiction, either from the effects or from general self-neglect. The problems are threefold: firstly, it does not impair you to the extent that you cannot "live," you can still limp along through a normal life high out of your mind on ketamine every day. This means it is not self-limiting in any way, and people are not forced to change until they are seriously ill. Secondly, the tolerance curve is very steep. If you use it just a few times in a week, the very next week you will need to consume noticeably more. It continues in a sort of hockey-stick arrangement. This is how people suddenly end up on 5g a day, destroying their urinary tract with this caustic, highly alkaline stuff. Thirdly, some people seem to just really like it. Ketamine has a subtle psychological effect that really seems to resonate with some people. I guess this is why its connected to long term depression treatment. Unfortunately when combined with the other two factors I have listed, it becomes a trap into which people can fall for a long time. Especially the young. It's basically halfway between marijuana and heroin. It's as destructive as that sounds. For the record, I'm in favor of the freedom to use drugs, but ketamine is nasty stuff.

eyeJam 11y ago

I am reminded while reading this article, that there exists hundreds of thousands of "casual" cocaine users who are capable of using for short periods of time, even a single night, and then getting on with their lives. This is supported by statistics[1], but also my personal experience of knowing plenty of successful ambitious people who will occasionally take a weekend off and consume psychedelics, or MDMA, or split a gram of coke between friends for a night. In fact I think it's safe to say that the majority of cocaine users don't become regular users with expensive and costly habits. Of course no one ever writes lengthy exposés about the occasional users because that wouldn't fit the narrative that has been playing on loop for the last 40 years: "all drugs are bad and even one single use will lead to your ruin". It's people who are suffering from mental illness or who live in conditions that cause them mental anguish who usually become addicted to drugs in general. It's a form of escape and the community that dulls their pain. The sooner we can start having sane, even-handed discussions about drugs the sooner we can start solving the root of the problem, which is not drugs, but mental illness and mental wellbeing. Sensationalist stories such as this one that completely ignore >90% of drug users and focuses only on the ones' whose stories are worth exploiting for clicks are not helping. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/jun/29/drugs-cocaine-environment-fair-trade http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/jun/29/drugs-c... He cites 12:1, casual to addicted, in the USA.

dreamfactory2 11y ago
what does cocaine have to do with it?