12 ms·

The Ketamine Connection

48 points by herendin 11y ago

ghotli 11y ago
The way this is constructed reminds me of "Snow Fall" from the NYT. http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/snow-fall/#/?part=tunnel-creek http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/snow-fall/#/?part=tunne...
- sliverstorm 11y ago
  Snow Fall was considered an incredible success in online presentation, and a lot of papers have tried to emulate it since. Any similarities you notice are probably not accidents.
steve19 11y ago
"Sometimes, they would use motorcycles to surround the police, threatening them with AK47 rifles and grenades." Very, very unlikely. China has an almost complete ban on civilian ownership of firearms. The only exception is for rare hunting permits (there is very little hunting in China) and wildlife conservation. Even then traditional hunting tends to use blackpowder muzzle loaders (and they restrict ownership of black/gun powder) They don't even allow regular cops to use useful firearms (they are issued a revolver that fires rounds with as much energy as a .22 LR ... enough to wound but not kill or even stop someone attacking police). They don't want the cops ever rebelling against the PLA. The BBC wants us to believe that Chinese authorities allowed an armed militia to directly challenge law enforcement and did nothing about it for over a decade? More likely that was just a story made up by bribed cops, cops who were shit scared of going into that village or cops/politicians who wanted extra credit for going into that village. So I wonder how much else of this story is exaggerated by the journalist. Fully automatic AK ownership, and even grenade ownership is fully legal in many or most US states, if you pay the required BATFE taxes and have the right permits (explosive storage permits for grenades) but so much wave one at a cop and you will be surrounded by armored cars and black helicopters sooner that you can blink.
- bcraven 11y ago
  I'm not sure the legalities of gun ownership would bother the members of an illegal drugs operation.
  - sliverstorm 11y ago
    Not to mention, the very business of a drug cartel is literally smuggling illegal contraband into countries. They are some of the last people that outlawing guns is going to stop.
  - vidarh 11y ago
    He's not suggesting the legalities is the primary reason it sounds strange, but that the Chinese government appears to be less than likely to tolerate a criminal organization to have weapons that might allow it to become a threat, when they don't even allow the police access to similar weapons, much less civilians. I have no idea what situations are like with respect to weapons in China, so I have no idea whether he's right or not, but this is not just about the legality.
- titanomachy 11y ago
  > Grenade ownership is fully legal in many or most US states Do you have a source to back that up? I think you can own a grenade launcher, but I'm quite certain that grenades are very illegal... possibly excepting smoke grenades.
  - steve19 11y ago
    See the NFA Act. Each grenade is legally a separate destructive device. Some States outlaw destructive devices, but they are legal under Federal law (with appropriate permits). You don't see people with them because there are not many transferable grenades left in circulation. If you want to shoot a bunch out of a m203 launcher it's cheaper to go to Cambodia than exhaust US civilian stocks.
perfTerm 11y ago
Great piece of investigative journalism.
BorisMelnik 11y ago
Great story. Some of these content pieces are becoming massive! I mean, that story was so large I wonder if they considered turning it into a short book, or expanding it into one and publishing?
jrapdx3 11y ago
Certainly a fascinating slant on ketamine, more familiar to me from reports documenting benefit in patients with severe, treatment-resistant depression. In clinical applications the dose is very small vs. street use and not associated with the destructive gut and brain side effects described in the article. However it's not innocuous, hallucinations or psychosis, among other side-effects, are known, non-trivial risks. It has been a drug of abuse in the US, but nothing like the near-epidemic proportions going on in China. If the article is accurately describing conditions over there, it suggests it's probably only a matter of time before we'll see it in N. America. Kind of ironic in a way. Here in Oregon cannabis is now legal for recreational use, and other states will probably join the handful that permit sale and possession of the drug. Widespread abuse of ketamine with harmful outcomes might inspire a new round of a "war on drugs" just as unnecessary controls on cannabis are being reduced. Perhaps it might lead us to think that not all "recreational" drugs should be regarded as harmless or the same as others, and one set of rules does not fit all. Edit: fix grammar.
- civilian 11y ago
  The use is really small? Uh, no. In operating rooms the amount of ketamine they use is to _knock out_ the patient. Recreational uses are only interesting because they have less than a knockout dose. If you did twice the amount of a clinical knockout dose, you'd just be more knocked out, you wouldn't be tripping. Here's the recreational dosage numbers: https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_dose.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_dose.shtm... Upon some more research, it appears I'm wrong. K isn't being used to knock people out anymore. (idk, my mom is a retired physician and she talked about how heart surgeons used to knock people out with k.) On page six you can find battlefield doses http://www.health.mil/~/media/MHS/Report%20Files/201203.ashx http://www.health.mil/~/media/MHS/Report%20Files/201203.ashx After you convert erowid's mg/lb to mg/kg it's clear that they're just giving light doses. You can find some reference to high doses of ketamine in this review article: http://www.annals.in/article.asp?issn=0971-9784;year=2015;volume=18;issue=2;spage=202;epage=209;aulast=Mazzeffi http://www.annals.in/article.asp?issn=0971-9784;year=2015;vo... "Similarly, Marlow et al. found that in coronary artery bypass patients, ketamine (2 mg/kg) caused significant decreases in stroke volume when used as an induction agent." tl;dr it varies. Also repeated/daily usage of ketamine is definitely bad and will make you piss blood.
ds_ 11y ago
Here it is on Google maps: https://goo.gl/maps/6kZfb https://goo.gl/maps/6kZfb
joergsauer 11y ago
"Ketamine is still used in developing countries as an emergency anaesthetic." Actually, it is on the WHO Model List of Essential Medicines <http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/93142/1/EML_18_eng.pdf?ua=1> http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/93142/1/EML_18_eng.... and used frequently and routinely in emergency procedures around the world, not just in "developing countries".
- civilian 11y ago
  Yup. I was watching Inside Combat Rescue and they use ketamine all the time to knock out the wounded soldiers.
- titanomachy 11y ago
  That's true. There are a few niche applications where it's used quite commonly, for example burn victims and the opiate-intolerant.
- BgSpnnrs 11y ago
  Still used in pediatrics in the UK. Just the BBC being the BBC.
  - joshcrowder 11y ago
    I thought this, it's widely known in the UK to be used on paediatrics. It's also something the BBC has publicised before... Weird
  - pge 11y ago
    Also in the US - my daughter was given ketamine when going into surgery.
alexandercrohde 11y ago
The thing I dislike about this article, as somebody who as experiment with ketamine (I took it twice two years ago, and then twice last month) is that the article's presentation implicitly vilifies ketamine a tad.
- joeyo 11y ago
  It's not all fun and games: ketamine will eventually destroy your bladder.
  - efng 11y ago
    Yes it will,if you do 5 grams a day - which is a ridiculous amount. If you are doing that much, you might in fact be a horse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Urinary_tract_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Urinary_tract_effects
    - kevinnk 11y ago
      > All reported cases where the user consumed greater than 5 g/day reported symptoms of the lower urinary tract. That only implies that if you do 5g/day, you will with near certainty get urinary tract problems. You can definitely get get urinary tract problems with much lower dosages.
    - glomph 11y ago
      It is a pretty standard problem with people that get heavy into ketamine though.
    - antihero 11y ago
      Nah, I've had plenty of mates that have done far far less than that (a few grammes on the weekend for a while) that have totally fucked their bladders.
    - de_Selby 11y ago
      You don't have to do anything close to that for it to destroy your UT. More like a couple years of occasional recreational use. It's a huge problem with younger people who use the drug recreationally.
titanomachy 11y ago
I found the quality of writing to be somewhat sub-par for BBC, which is usually excellent. Very interesting story, though.
egypturnash 11y ago
Someday we'll find it The K-hole connection The ravers, the Chinese, and me.
mrottenkolber 11y ago
The writing in this piece is horrible. "Free parties were popping up all over the country, and there were many in Bristol. That's when ketamine came flooding into the city." Differentiation? Anybody? As far as I am concerned these so called "Free parties", aka outdoor raves, exist in most places of the world, as they cater for a basic human need to have a good time. Now when people enjoy themselves, they tend to drink, smoke and use various consumerables. We know Ketamine is big in the UK. Now how are non commercial social events connected to Ketamine?
jklein11 11y ago
Ketamine... just say neigh.

48 points by herendin 11y ago

The way this is constructed reminds me of "Snow Fall" from the NYT. http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/snow-fall/#/?part=tunnel-creek http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/snow-fall/#/?part=tunne...

sliverstorm 11y ago
Snow Fall was considered an incredible success in online presentation, and a lot of papers have tried to emulate it since. Any similarities you notice are probably not accidents.

steve19 11y ago

"Sometimes, they would use motorcycles to surround the police, threatening them with AK47 rifles and grenades." Very, very unlikely. China has an almost complete ban on civilian ownership of firearms. The only exception is for rare hunting permits (there is very little hunting in China) and wildlife conservation. Even then traditional hunting tends to use blackpowder muzzle loaders (and they restrict ownership of black/gun powder) They don't even allow regular cops to use useful firearms (they are issued a revolver that fires rounds with as much energy as a .22 LR ... enough to wound but not kill or even stop someone attacking police). They don't want the cops ever rebelling against the PLA. The BBC wants us to believe that Chinese authorities allowed an armed militia to directly challenge law enforcement and did nothing about it for over a decade? More likely that was just a story made up by bribed cops, cops who were shit scared of going into that village or cops/politicians who wanted extra credit for going into that village. So I wonder how much else of this story is exaggerated by the journalist. Fully automatic AK ownership, and even grenade ownership is fully legal in many or most US states, if you pay the required BATFE taxes and have the right permits (explosive storage permits for grenades) but so much wave one at a cop and you will be surrounded by armored cars and black helicopters sooner that you can blink.

bcraven 11y ago
I'm not sure the legalities of gun ownership would bother the members of an illegal drugs operation.
- sliverstorm 11y ago
  Not to mention, the very business of a drug cartel is literally smuggling illegal contraband into countries. They are some of the last people that outlawing guns is going to stop.
- vidarh 11y ago
  He's not suggesting the legalities is the primary reason it sounds strange, but that the Chinese government appears to be less than likely to tolerate a criminal organization to have weapons that might allow it to become a threat, when they don't even allow the police access to similar weapons, much less civilians. I have no idea what situations are like with respect to weapons in China, so I have no idea whether he's right or not, but this is not just about the legality.
titanomachy 11y ago
> Grenade ownership is fully legal in many or most US states Do you have a source to back that up? I think you can own a grenade launcher, but I'm quite certain that grenades are very illegal... possibly excepting smoke grenades.
- steve19 11y ago
  See the NFA Act. Each grenade is legally a separate destructive device. Some States outlaw destructive devices, but they are legal under Federal law (with appropriate permits). You don't see people with them because there are not many transferable grenades left in circulation. If you want to shoot a bunch out of a m203 launcher it's cheaper to go to Cambodia than exhaust US civilian stocks.

perfTerm 11y ago

Great piece of investigative journalism.

BorisMelnik 11y ago

Great story. Some of these content pieces are becoming massive! I mean, that story was so large I wonder if they considered turning it into a short book, or expanding it into one and publishing?

jrapdx3 11y ago

Certainly a fascinating slant on ketamine, more familiar to me from reports documenting benefit in patients with severe, treatment-resistant depression. In clinical applications the dose is very small vs. street use and not associated with the destructive gut and brain side effects described in the article. However it's not innocuous, hallucinations or psychosis, among other side-effects, are known, non-trivial risks. It has been a drug of abuse in the US, but nothing like the near-epidemic proportions going on in China. If the article is accurately describing conditions over there, it suggests it's probably only a matter of time before we'll see it in N. America. Kind of ironic in a way. Here in Oregon cannabis is now legal for recreational use, and other states will probably join the handful that permit sale and possession of the drug. Widespread abuse of ketamine with harmful outcomes might inspire a new round of a "war on drugs" just as unnecessary controls on cannabis are being reduced. Perhaps it might lead us to think that not all "recreational" drugs should be regarded as harmless or the same as others, and one set of rules does not fit all. Edit: fix grammar.

civilian 11y ago
The use is really small? Uh, no. In operating rooms the amount of ketamine they use is to _knock out_ the patient. Recreational uses are only interesting because they have less than a knockout dose. If you did twice the amount of a clinical knockout dose, you'd just be more knocked out, you wouldn't be tripping. Here's the recreational dosage numbers: https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_dose.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_dose.shtm... Upon some more research, it appears I'm wrong. K isn't being used to knock people out anymore. (idk, my mom is a retired physician and she talked about how heart surgeons used to knock people out with k.) On page six you can find battlefield doses http://www.health.mil/~/media/MHS/Report%20Files/201203.ashx http://www.health.mil/~/media/MHS/Report%20Files/201203.ashx After you convert erowid's mg/lb to mg/kg it's clear that they're just giving light doses. You can find some reference to high doses of ketamine in this review article: http://www.annals.in/article.asp?issn=0971-9784;year=2015;volume=18;issue=2;spage=202;epage=209;aulast=Mazzeffi http://www.annals.in/article.asp?issn=0971-9784;year=2015;vo... "Similarly, Marlow et al. found that in coronary artery bypass patients, ketamine (2 mg/kg) caused significant decreases in stroke volume when used as an induction agent." tl;dr it varies. Also repeated/daily usage of ketamine is definitely bad and will make you piss blood.

ds_ 11y ago

Here it is on Google maps: https://goo.gl/maps/6kZfb https://goo.gl/maps/6kZfb

joergsauer 11y ago

"Ketamine is still used in developing countries as an emergency anaesthetic." Actually, it is on the WHO Model List of Essential Medicines <http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/93142/1/EML_18_eng.pdf?ua=1> http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/93142/1/EML_18_eng.... and used frequently and routinely in emergency procedures around the world, not just in "developing countries".

civilian 11y ago
Yup. I was watching Inside Combat Rescue and they use ketamine all the time to knock out the wounded soldiers.
titanomachy 11y ago
That's true. There are a few niche applications where it's used quite commonly, for example burn victims and the opiate-intolerant.
BgSpnnrs 11y ago
Still used in pediatrics in the UK. Just the BBC being the BBC.
- joshcrowder 11y ago
  I thought this, it's widely known in the UK to be used on paediatrics. It's also something the BBC has publicised before... Weird
- pge 11y ago
  Also in the US - my daughter was given ketamine when going into surgery.

alexandercrohde 11y ago

The thing I dislike about this article, as somebody who as experiment with ketamine (I took it twice two years ago, and then twice last month) is that the article's presentation implicitly vilifies ketamine a tad.

joeyo 11y ago
It's not all fun and games: ketamine will eventually destroy your bladder.
- efng 11y ago
  Yes it will,if you do 5 grams a day - which is a ridiculous amount. If you are doing that much, you might in fact be a horse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Urinary_tract_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Urinary_tract_effects
  - kevinnk 11y ago
    > All reported cases where the user consumed greater than 5 g/day reported symptoms of the lower urinary tract. That only implies that if you do 5g/day, you will with near certainty get urinary tract problems. You can definitely get get urinary tract problems with much lower dosages.
  - glomph 11y ago
    It is a pretty standard problem with people that get heavy into ketamine though.
  - antihero 11y ago
    Nah, I've had plenty of mates that have done far far less than that (a few grammes on the weekend for a while) that have totally fucked their bladders.
  - de_Selby 11y ago
    You don't have to do anything close to that for it to destroy your UT. More like a couple years of occasional recreational use. It's a huge problem with younger people who use the drug recreationally.

titanomachy 11y ago

I found the quality of writing to be somewhat sub-par for BBC, which is usually excellent. Very interesting story, though.

egypturnash 11y ago

Someday we'll find it The K-hole connection The ravers, the Chinese, and me.

mrottenkolber 11y ago

The writing in this piece is horrible. "Free parties were popping up all over the country, and there were many in Bristol. That's when ketamine came flooding into the city." Differentiation? Anybody? As far as I am concerned these so called "Free parties", aka outdoor raves, exist in most places of the world, as they cater for a basic human need to have a good time. Now when people enjoy themselves, they tend to drink, smoke and use various consumerables. We know Ketamine is big in the UK. Now how are non commercial social events connected to Ketamine?

jklein11 11y ago

Ketamine... just say neigh.