4 ms·

The nazis stayed in power but wore the clothes of democrats: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorship-to-democracy-the-role-ex-nazis-playe

by irixusr 11y ago

The nazis stayed in power but wore the clothes of democrats: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorship-to-democracy-the-role-ex-nazis-played-in-early-west-germany-a-810207.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorshi... And, for all syriza's faults (they're socialists :p), they're not responsible for the mess: they were never in power. Therefore, they were never corrupt or fed the system of clientism. I don't like socialism, quite the contrary. But German banks made bad loans. German banks get bailed out by all EU governments, nationalizing their losses [1] German bank survive stronger than ever. Sounds more like a moral hazard [2] for the banks than free market capitalism to me. 1. ironically enough, Portugal, and All the other PIIGs, holds greek bonds because they bailed out German banks in a sign of "European solidarity". 2. It's easy to make money when you gamble with the House's money. In the US when (small[3]) banks fail, their assets are sold, their depositor's assets insured up to 100k and the system continues nicely. 3. I realize congress and friends chickened out with the "too large to fail". But TAARP was much larger than what the Greek bailout ever needed to be. And the EU's gdp is larger than the US'

astrodust 11y ago
The European GPD is slightly larger than the US, but it's important to note that it is larger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...
- irixusr 11y ago
  Noted and updated.
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
> But TAARP was much larger than what the Greek bailout ever needed to be. And the EU's gdp is larger than the US' TARP paid itself off as the US economy is almost always a sure bet. The chances of the Greeks paying off their debt is pretty much zero. These are very different situations.
- irixusr 11y ago
  Are you sure the chances are zero? Greece has made a lot of sacrifices over the past five years and could have a surplus, if not for the interest rate of the debt. So restructure it like the German one was: long payment plan, low interest and payments dependent on exports. Then they'll pay it off too! Btw, the interest payment is the reward for risk. The risk is default of the lender and inability to access credit for the debtor. German banks gambled badly, tough.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  It looks a lot more like the housing bubble to me, with banks loaning crazy sums to NINJA borrowers. Or the recent muni bond default thing in the US where banks setup finance deals with unsophisticated and or corrupt local officials that they knew couldn't be paid for, and then wanted to keep the ordinary stiffs on the hook when it went sour.
chm 11y ago
That's not surprising, though. Blaming a newly elected socialist government for all the country's faults. It's just a scare tactic. This happened in Quebec recently when the Parti Québécois (quite the varied political party, but at the time center left) was elected, after 9 years of Liberal government. The PQ was blamed by the liberals for everything and anything, but the PQ had just been in power some months in a whole decade. Turns out the scare tactic worked, even pushed the Premier to hold elections prematurely, and government returned to Liberals.
- irixusr 11y ago
  Yes I remember it. But the PQ hardly did itself any favors.
  - chm 11y ago
    I don't think they were any worse than the Liberals, especially given the time they had. Granted, Mme Marois had some PR troubles. It's just too easy to say that "socialists will crash the economy, they have no idea what they're doing" when clearly nobody has any idea what they're doing.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> But TAARP was much larger than what the Greek bailout ever needed to be. TARP was viable because buying up the "troubled assets" itself arrested the decline in their value and thereby interrupted (or at least mitigate) the positive feedback loop of the collapse. Is the Greek crisis a similar positive feedback collapse with readily identifiable asset classes which could be targeted for a bailout purchase that would interrupt the feedback loop? (Serious question: I've seen a lot of reporting on the surface manifestations of the crisis, but not a lot of readily available information on the underlying fundamentals.)
- irixusr 11y ago
  That's a good question, and one that I'm not in a position to answer. However the greek economy is not just olive oil and tourism, but those sectors are huge [1]. The Greeks also export finished petrochemical goods, have (had?) the largest commercial shipping fleet, control flow through the Mediterranean (the islands). More importantly they can have a balanced budget if ppl negotiate in good faith. [1] it annoys me when ppl disparage greece's "olive oil" sector. Olive oil, like greek agriculture in general is high value (see how much it sells for in Whole Foods). Greek olive oil isn't like Iowa potatoes, but more like California citrus groves.

by irixusr 11y ago

astrodust 11y ago

The European GPD is slightly larger than the US, but it's important to note that it is larger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

irixusr 11y ago
Noted and updated.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

> But TAARP was much larger than what the Greek bailout ever needed to be. And the EU's gdp is larger than the US' TARP paid itself off as the US economy is almost always a sure bet. The chances of the Greeks paying off their debt is pretty much zero. These are very different situations.

irixusr 11y ago
Are you sure the chances are zero? Greece has made a lot of sacrifices over the past five years and could have a surplus, if not for the interest rate of the debt. So restructure it like the German one was: long payment plan, low interest and payments dependent on exports. Then they'll pay it off too! Btw, the interest payment is the reward for risk. The risk is default of the lender and inability to access credit for the debtor. German banks gambled badly, tough.
fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
It looks a lot more like the housing bubble to me, with banks loaning crazy sums to NINJA borrowers. Or the recent muni bond default thing in the US where banks setup finance deals with unsophisticated and or corrupt local officials that they knew couldn't be paid for, and then wanted to keep the ordinary stiffs on the hook when it went sour.

chm 11y ago

That's not surprising, though. Blaming a newly elected socialist government for all the country's faults. It's just a scare tactic. This happened in Quebec recently when the Parti Québécois (quite the varied political party, but at the time center left) was elected, after 9 years of Liberal government. The PQ was blamed by the liberals for everything and anything, but the PQ had just been in power some months in a whole decade. Turns out the scare tactic worked, even pushed the Premier to hold elections prematurely, and government returned to Liberals.

irixusr 11y ago
Yes I remember it. But the PQ hardly did itself any favors.
- chm 11y ago
  I don't think they were any worse than the Liberals, especially given the time they had. Granted, Mme Marois had some PR troubles. It's just too easy to say that "socialists will crash the economy, they have no idea what they're doing" when clearly nobody has any idea what they're doing.

dragonwriter 11y ago

> But TAARP was much larger than what the Greek bailout ever needed to be. TARP was viable because buying up the "troubled assets" itself arrested the decline in their value and thereby interrupted (or at least mitigate) the positive feedback loop of the collapse. Is the Greek crisis a similar positive feedback collapse with readily identifiable asset classes which could be targeted for a bailout purchase that would interrupt the feedback loop? (Serious question: I've seen a lot of reporting on the surface manifestations of the crisis, but not a lot of readily available information on the underlying fundamentals.)

irixusr 11y ago
That's a good question, and one that I'm not in a position to answer. However the greek economy is not just olive oil and tourism, but those sectors are huge [1]. The Greeks also export finished petrochemical goods, have (had?) the largest commercial shipping fleet, control flow through the Mediterranean (the islands). More importantly they can have a balanced budget if ppl negotiate in good faith. [1] it annoys me when ppl disparage greece's "olive oil" sector. Olive oil, like greek agriculture in general is high value (see how much it sells for in Whole Foods). Greek olive oil isn't like Iowa potatoes, but more like California citrus groves.