6 ms·

It wasn't immediately. In the years after the war, Germany was pillaged of any industrial infrastructure, Germans were put into slave labor to "compensate damag

It wasn't immediately. In the years after the war, Germany was pillaged of any industrial infrastructure, Germans were put into slave labor to "compensate damages", population was mostly left to starve.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago
> Germans were put into slave labor to "compensate damages" Can you supply some documentation for this claim?
- ucaetano 11y ago
  After the war, instead of being repatriated , millions of German POWs were put into forced labor by the former Allies. Some were kept by the soviets until the mid and late 50's. Millions are still officially listed as missing, mostly sent to slave labor camps in Siberia. http://www.stern.de/politik/geschichte/kriegsgefangene-viele-kamen-nicht-zurueck-3548272.html http://www.stern.de/politik/geschichte/kriegsgefangene-viele... Also, civilian Germans in the territories occupied after the war were also put to forced work. There's plenty of data on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_of_Germans_after_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_of_Germans_after_... Also, international humanitarian aid to Germany was initially forbidden. There were mass rapes (some estimates put victims at 2 million German woman) and massive famine (people going through winters with 1000-1500 calories per day). The general idea after WW2 was to completely obliterate Germany, so it would never rise again. The change in mindset only came when Western countries realized that a strong Germany was the only effective defense agains Soviet expansion. In the meantime, Greeks are worried that their fat retirement funds and unemployment insurance will be cut...
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    >Western countries realized that a strong Germany was the only effective defense agains Soviet expansion. This makes no sense. The atrocities you list were almost all done by the Soviets, yet you somehow blame the West? The West invested into West Germany from the beginning (Im not arguing this, it takes time to ramp up rebuilding and yes there was a real lag period of post-war crazyiness, fatigue, and lack of money. We had our own dead to bury and our own economies to fix up first) and tried to build Berlin as a model Western city. Yeah, the Soviets did fuck all, but the western side was a totally different story. Also, there's nothing wrong with forcing soldiers to rebuild what they broke. Oh you guys thought you could drop bombs and mortars endlessly and just go back home? This story should be a message to the young people clamoring for war today. If you lose, its not all hugs and sunshine. Its years of back-breaking work to undo the damage you have done.
    - ucaetano 11y ago
      I'm not blaming anyone, just comparing the situation in Greece and post-WW2 Germany. All sides committed atrocities, but the Soviets' were by far the worst. West didn't "invested into West Germany from the begininng". Seriously, read the links I posted. "Also, there's nothing wrong with forcing soldiers to rebuild what they broke." Geneva conventions? I'm not defending German actions or anything. I'm just showing that there's absolutely no way to compare Greece and post-WW2 Germany.
      - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
        >Geneva conventions? These only apply during wartime.
        ucaetano 11y ago
        Well, then it's slavery of a defeated country. Are you defending that as legal?
      - elorant 11y ago
        I'm not blaming anyone, just comparing the situation in Greece and post-WW2 Germany. All sides committed atrocities, but the Soviets' were by far the worst. Were they? During the siege of Stalingrad, Nazis were hanging dead bodies of kids [1] in the streets to demoralize the soviet troops. Of course it worked the other way, Soviets were so much infuriated by this that they fought to the last man. You have some audacity coming here and making such claims. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2228373/Human-excrement-piled-waist-high-Full-horror-Stalingrad-revealed-time-interviews-Russian-soldiers-finally-light-day.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2228373/Human-excrem...
  - mikeash 11y ago
    In the meantime, Greeks haven't gone out to murder half the world in a very, very long time. Yeah, the Germans suffered a lot after the war. But what do you expect to happen after the unbelievable suffering they inflicted on so many? The conditions you describe are pretty minor compared to what they put others through beforehand. Now, that's not to say they deserved to suffer. Many, perhaps most, of those people were still innocent. But of course the same goes for the Greeks. Very few Greeks actually caused this debt crisis themselves, while many of them are now suffering for it. Germans were forced into slave labor? They did it to others first, and worse. Germans starved? They starved others first, and worse. And yet despite never coming anywhere close to repaying the damage (how could you?) or experiencing suffering on anything like the scale they caused others (again, how could they?) the world didn't use that to keep holding their feet to the fire. They did for a bit, then moved on. The business with containing Soviet expansion seems like the heart of the matter. Morality and retribution (not the same thing, of course!) get put aside when it comes time to resist a powerful enemy. But really, morality isn't a factor in international relations, except when it comes to attempting to sway the opinions of populations. It's all about what you want to happen and what you can do to make that come about. After WWII, what the Western Allies wanted to happen was for West Germany to become strong again and serve to resist Soviet expansion. They made it happen by forgiving debts and helping Germany rebuild. The Greek crisis seems to have no such goals or methods. Instead, it's a bunch of "they should do this and that" because of some idea of morality. And that argument falls really flat when the country making that moral argument benefitted greatly from other countries doing things differently for them within living memory. It's not really about Germany or WWII or morality or revenge or any of that. It's basically, stop wagging your fingers and talking about what you think should be done, and start figuring out what your goals are and how to achieve them.
    - ucaetano 11y ago
      What are you talking about? The article compares the current situation in Greece to post-WW2 Germany, I'm explaining why it doesn't make any sense to make such a comparison. I'm not talking about who deserved what or whatever, morality, retribution or anything related to that. Go talk about morality or retribution somewhere else. "After WWII, what the Western Allies wanted to happen was for West Germany to become strong again and serve to resist Soviet expansion." Wrong, they wanted to transform Germany into an under-developed agrarian state that would never pose a threat again. Read your history. It only changed due to the Soviet threat, but that was after years of the previous policy.
  - elorant 11y ago
    In the meantime, Greeks are worried that their fat retirement funds and unemployment insurance will be cut... This is low. How does the last sentence relate to the rest of your comment? You present a dire situation for post-war Germany, which let me assure you is nothing compared to what Germans did in Greece (and Russia for that matter) during the war (like murdering kids), and then you close it with a comment for Greece which is quite irrelevant to the context. Or is that Greece which was devastated by German occupation more than any other country in WWII has to answer for what happened to Germany post-war. We didn’t even participate in any of that, we were busy killing each other in a civil war orchestrated by the Brits. I’m sick and tired with the racism and hatred some people in here have towards Greece.
    - dang 11y ago
      Yes, that comment was noxious and abusive, and we are going to ban accounts that do it repeatedly. I'm sorry to add that you've also been making the threads worse by lashing out at other users. Please follow the HN guidelines and remain civil, even when others are being provocative. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html There aren't very many HNers who can articulate the Greek perspective first-hand to the rest of us, so you have a special contribution to make to these threads. Of your compatriots who have been posting, the ones I've seen have done so with impressive dignity, and they've raised the whole discourse as a result. So clearly it's possible, because they surely have the same emotions that you do.
      - elorant 11y ago
        There’s no reason to ban anyone, well you can ban me if you like I won’t make a fuss about it. But this is the Internet, sometimes harsh words are exchanged. It doesn’t matter, we lack physical connection so we are hyper sensitive to how something is articulated. Other than that I seriously doubt the HN community will be hurt by half a dozen posts that might got derailed. We could all live happily ever after. Personally I will stop commenting in any posts relating to Greece, or any other non-technical/geeky post for that matter, since obviously my temperament is going ballistic these last couple of weeks.
    - 11y ago
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

AnimalMuppet 11y ago

> Germans were put into slave labor to "compensate damages" Can you supply some documentation for this claim?

ucaetano 11y ago
After the war, instead of being repatriated , millions of German POWs were put into forced labor by the former Allies. Some were kept by the soviets until the mid and late 50's. Millions are still officially listed as missing, mostly sent to slave labor camps in Siberia. http://www.stern.de/politik/geschichte/kriegsgefangene-viele-kamen-nicht-zurueck-3548272.html http://www.stern.de/politik/geschichte/kriegsgefangene-viele... Also, civilian Germans in the territories occupied after the war were also put to forced work. There's plenty of data on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_of_Germans_after_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_of_Germans_after_... Also, international humanitarian aid to Germany was initially forbidden. There were mass rapes (some estimates put victims at 2 million German woman) and massive famine (people going through winters with 1000-1500 calories per day). The general idea after WW2 was to completely obliterate Germany, so it would never rise again. The change in mindset only came when Western countries realized that a strong Germany was the only effective defense agains Soviet expansion. In the meantime, Greeks are worried that their fat retirement funds and unemployment insurance will be cut...
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  >Western countries realized that a strong Germany was the only effective defense agains Soviet expansion. This makes no sense. The atrocities you list were almost all done by the Soviets, yet you somehow blame the West? The West invested into West Germany from the beginning (Im not arguing this, it takes time to ramp up rebuilding and yes there was a real lag period of post-war crazyiness, fatigue, and lack of money. We had our own dead to bury and our own economies to fix up first) and tried to build Berlin as a model Western city. Yeah, the Soviets did fuck all, but the western side was a totally different story. Also, there's nothing wrong with forcing soldiers to rebuild what they broke. Oh you guys thought you could drop bombs and mortars endlessly and just go back home? This story should be a message to the young people clamoring for war today. If you lose, its not all hugs and sunshine. Its years of back-breaking work to undo the damage you have done.
  - ucaetano 11y ago
    I'm not blaming anyone, just comparing the situation in Greece and post-WW2 Germany. All sides committed atrocities, but the Soviets' were by far the worst. West didn't "invested into West Germany from the begininng". Seriously, read the links I posted. "Also, there's nothing wrong with forcing soldiers to rebuild what they broke." Geneva conventions? I'm not defending German actions or anything. I'm just showing that there's absolutely no way to compare Greece and post-WW2 Germany.
    - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
      >Geneva conventions? These only apply during wartime.
      - ucaetano 11y ago
        Well, then it's slavery of a defeated country. Are you defending that as legal?
    - elorant 11y ago
      I'm not blaming anyone, just comparing the situation in Greece and post-WW2 Germany. All sides committed atrocities, but the Soviets' were by far the worst. Were they? During the siege of Stalingrad, Nazis were hanging dead bodies of kids [1] in the streets to demoralize the soviet troops. Of course it worked the other way, Soviets were so much infuriated by this that they fought to the last man. You have some audacity coming here and making such claims. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2228373/Human-excrement-piled-waist-high-Full-horror-Stalingrad-revealed-time-interviews-Russian-soldiers-finally-light-day.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2228373/Human-excrem...
- mikeash 11y ago
  In the meantime, Greeks haven't gone out to murder half the world in a very, very long time. Yeah, the Germans suffered a lot after the war. But what do you expect to happen after the unbelievable suffering they inflicted on so many? The conditions you describe are pretty minor compared to what they put others through beforehand. Now, that's not to say they deserved to suffer. Many, perhaps most, of those people were still innocent. But of course the same goes for the Greeks. Very few Greeks actually caused this debt crisis themselves, while many of them are now suffering for it. Germans were forced into slave labor? They did it to others first, and worse. Germans starved? They starved others first, and worse. And yet despite never coming anywhere close to repaying the damage (how could you?) or experiencing suffering on anything like the scale they caused others (again, how could they?) the world didn't use that to keep holding their feet to the fire. They did for a bit, then moved on. The business with containing Soviet expansion seems like the heart of the matter. Morality and retribution (not the same thing, of course!) get put aside when it comes time to resist a powerful enemy. But really, morality isn't a factor in international relations, except when it comes to attempting to sway the opinions of populations. It's all about what you want to happen and what you can do to make that come about. After WWII, what the Western Allies wanted to happen was for West Germany to become strong again and serve to resist Soviet expansion. They made it happen by forgiving debts and helping Germany rebuild. The Greek crisis seems to have no such goals or methods. Instead, it's a bunch of "they should do this and that" because of some idea of morality. And that argument falls really flat when the country making that moral argument benefitted greatly from other countries doing things differently for them within living memory. It's not really about Germany or WWII or morality or revenge or any of that. It's basically, stop wagging your fingers and talking about what you think should be done, and start figuring out what your goals are and how to achieve them.
  - ucaetano 11y ago
    What are you talking about? The article compares the current situation in Greece to post-WW2 Germany, I'm explaining why it doesn't make any sense to make such a comparison. I'm not talking about who deserved what or whatever, morality, retribution or anything related to that. Go talk about morality or retribution somewhere else. "After WWII, what the Western Allies wanted to happen was for West Germany to become strong again and serve to resist Soviet expansion." Wrong, they wanted to transform Germany into an under-developed agrarian state that would never pose a threat again. Read your history. It only changed due to the Soviet threat, but that was after years of the previous policy.
- elorant 11y ago
  In the meantime, Greeks are worried that their fat retirement funds and unemployment insurance will be cut... This is low. How does the last sentence relate to the rest of your comment? You present a dire situation for post-war Germany, which let me assure you is nothing compared to what Germans did in Greece (and Russia for that matter) during the war (like murdering kids), and then you close it with a comment for Greece which is quite irrelevant to the context. Or is that Greece which was devastated by German occupation more than any other country in WWII has to answer for what happened to Germany post-war. We didn’t even participate in any of that, we were busy killing each other in a civil war orchestrated by the Brits. I’m sick and tired with the racism and hatred some people in here have towards Greece.
  - dang 11y ago
    Yes, that comment was noxious and abusive, and we are going to ban accounts that do it repeatedly. I'm sorry to add that you've also been making the threads worse by lashing out at other users. Please follow the HN guidelines and remain civil, even when others are being provocative. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html There aren't very many HNers who can articulate the Greek perspective first-hand to the rest of us, so you have a special contribution to make to these threads. Of your compatriots who have been posting, the ones I've seen have done so with impressive dignity, and they've raised the whole discourse as a result. So clearly it's possible, because they surely have the same emotions that you do.
    - elorant 11y ago
      There’s no reason to ban anyone, well you can ban me if you like I won’t make a fuss about it. But this is the Internet, sometimes harsh words are exchanged. It doesn’t matter, we lack physical connection so we are hyper sensitive to how something is articulated. Other than that I seriously doubt the HN community will be hurt by half a dozen posts that might got derailed. We could all live happily ever after. Personally I will stop commenting in any posts relating to Greece, or any other non-technical/geeky post for that matter, since obviously my temperament is going ballistic these last couple of weeks.
  - 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]