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Countries with much worse pensions than Greece are being asked to bail out much more lavish Greek pensions — it is both moral hazard and injustice. Let's keep e

Countries with much worse pensions than Greece are being asked to bail out much more lavish Greek pensions — it is both moral hazard and injustice. Let's keep everybody fed and work on the medical aspect, too, and figure out how to make the Eurozone fair, which could be a minimum pension / benefit level of the lowest country, adjusted for local prices to other countries, and if you want something above that you can't demand that poorer nations pay for it.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
icebraining 11y ago
Countries with much worse pensions than Greece are being asked to bail out much more lavish Greek pensions Which countries are those? How much are they being asked to pay?
- Xylakant 11y ago
  For example the baltic states http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/poorer-than-greece-the-eu-countries-that-reject-a-new-athens-bailout?CMP=share_btn_tw http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/poorer-than-gre...
  - icebraining 11y ago
    How much are they being asked to pay?
- elorant 11y ago
  He probably means Slovenia, Estonia, Slovakia, Latvia and Malta. But that doesn't mean much, those are all countries with a much smaller economy than Greece's so it's natural that they pay smaller pensions.
  - Xylakant 11y ago
    Why is it natural they pay smaller pensions? It's smaller in terms of how much money each pensioner gets per month that he's talking about, not smaller as in "total amount of money spent".
TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
Actually most of the money was loaned by the Eurozone - mainly Germany - as welfare for German corporates who benefited from Greek government spending on German exports. (Including essentials like submarines and other military equipment.) The suggestion that some huge percentage is financing lazy pensioners is simply wrong - if only because those same pensioners paid money into the usual pension pot while they were working. The issue is more that the lunatic imposition of austerity killed Greek economic output, making existing spending commitments unaffordable.
- MagnumOpus 11y ago
  To your first point: It is pretty ludicrous to claim that giving money to the Greek government, who then gives it to Greek public sector sinecure holders, who then buy a Mercedes (for instance) is welfare for the German company. It is the Greek who end up with the goods. To your second point: The pensioners did not pay into a pot. Greece doesn't have a _funded_ pension pot, they have an unfunded "generational contract" like most other countries public pension system - i.e. the current pensioners paid in small amounts for the smaller number of shorter-lived pensioners that drew benefits 30-40 years - and they themselves now draw pensions for longer and in larger numbers. As such the "lunatic imposition of austerity" is only bringing the Greek pension age and institutional standards in line with the rest of the continent - which they failed to do for decades prior.
  - elorant 11y ago
    We don’t buy Mercedes only. We also buy German tanks and submarines and French military airplanes. Which we shouldn’t if Europe were to guarantee our borders as it’s their obligation.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

icebraining 11y ago

Countries with much worse pensions than Greece are being asked to bail out much more lavish Greek pensions Which countries are those? How much are they being asked to pay?

Xylakant 11y ago
For example the baltic states http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/poorer-than-greece-the-eu-countries-that-reject-a-new-athens-bailout?CMP=share_btn_tw http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/poorer-than-gre...
- icebraining 11y ago
  How much are they being asked to pay?
elorant 11y ago
He probably means Slovenia, Estonia, Slovakia, Latvia and Malta. But that doesn't mean much, those are all countries with a much smaller economy than Greece's so it's natural that they pay smaller pensions.
- Xylakant 11y ago
  Why is it natural they pay smaller pensions? It's smaller in terms of how much money each pensioner gets per month that he's talking about, not smaller as in "total amount of money spent".

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago

Actually most of the money was loaned by the Eurozone - mainly Germany - as welfare for German corporates who benefited from Greek government spending on German exports. (Including essentials like submarines and other military equipment.) The suggestion that some huge percentage is financing lazy pensioners is simply wrong - if only because those same pensioners paid money into the usual pension pot while they were working. The issue is more that the lunatic imposition of austerity killed Greek economic output, making existing spending commitments unaffordable.

MagnumOpus 11y ago
To your first point: It is pretty ludicrous to claim that giving money to the Greek government, who then gives it to Greek public sector sinecure holders, who then buy a Mercedes (for instance) is welfare for the German company. It is the Greek who end up with the goods. To your second point: The pensioners did not pay into a pot. Greece doesn't have a _funded_ pension pot, they have an unfunded "generational contract" like most other countries public pension system - i.e. the current pensioners paid in small amounts for the smaller number of shorter-lived pensioners that drew benefits 30-40 years - and they themselves now draw pensions for longer and in larger numbers. As such the "lunatic imposition of austerity" is only bringing the Greek pension age and institutional standards in line with the rest of the continent - which they failed to do for decades prior.
- elorant 11y ago
  We don’t buy Mercedes only. We also buy German tanks and submarines and French military airplanes. Which we shouldn’t if Europe were to guarantee our borders as it’s their obligation.