5 ms·

The black economy is a symptom of the problem not the cause If you were Greek (Especially a young Greek) and had no prospects for a future and no hope for job

by yc1010 11y ago

The black economy is a symptom of the problem not the cause If you were Greek (Especially a young Greek) and had no prospects for a future and no hope for job in a country with highest unemployment (especially among the youngest) in EU, the black economy might be very attractive... Also I am sure the "I did not cause this debt hence why should I pay taxes for it" attitude might be very prevailent And do you blame them? You might feel all fine and mighty sitting in your chair reading HN (probably while at work) towards those "lazy" Greeks, but all you have to do is imagine yourself in the same situation. The Greek economy already has contracted more and for longer than the US during the Great Depression (which did not have a larger debt burden then), let that fact focus your mind, here is a graph http://i.imgur.com/LKQ6Mov.jpg http://i.imgur.com/LKQ6Mov.jpg Don't forget that the Great Depression years where the golden age for criminals in the US, like I said its symptom of the problem not the root cause.

roel_v 11y ago
The black economy is a symptom of the problem not the cause 8| What sort of weird alternate universe can this sort of statement come from? Are you claiming tax dodging would go away if there wasn't austerity? So, 8 years ago there was no tax evasion in Greece, or at least no more than average?
- yc1010 11y ago
  Tax dodging will never go away, every economy has it, some companies from the likes of the US make an artform out of it especially the large majority funneling money via my country, Ireland. While I do not condone it, it is plainly obvious that the average person in Greece will have no "ethical" issues dodging taxes especially seeing that unemployment is high (hence black/gray economy might be the ONLY choice) and many people especially the younger generation did not rack up this debt and are the ones suffering the most, might rightly be asking themselves why they should be the ones suffering and paying for it via taxes.
  - roel_v 11y ago
    The very reason they're in this predicament is that they don't pay taxes. And no, it's not just the 'magnates' (whatever that means) - it's everybody. They can't collect on 15 billion dollars a year, if they had collected just half of that the last 5 years, there would now not be a problem at all! Look, it doesn't make sense to argue with you since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about (no, US companies do not 'dodge' tax through Ireland, they'd be raped by the IRS if what they did was illegal), it's just that populist blaring like yours seems to take over any discussion on this topic - which I have fully internalized after 20 years on the internet, and still sometimes it irks me.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      It's funny how a very large part of this is because Greece is still for small transactions very much a cash society and that means that it is relatively easy to keep things off the books. The irony is that the current situation will make sure that nobody in Greece will ever trust a bank again and that in turn will make it a lot harder to collect those taxes. This won't blow over easily.
      - kamaal 11y ago
        As some one who comes from a country where tax evasion is common(India), I can tell you Greece's problems have just begun. And its not like introducing plastic money or online transactions will fix anything here. By now most of the Greeks would be so mentally conditioned to not paying taxes, any attempt from the government to make them pay will come across as a being handed out a very unfair deal. Most will feel cheated and being asked to make sacrifices out of their way. In fact this is the reason why its so difficult to turn around things in such countries. The issue is not technology or government policy. When you have a whole generation of people grow up in such a ecosystem, these practices seep into your culture and everyday life. You can only undo them gradually overtime, and sometimes it takes 2-3 generations to get out of it. Another defining characteristic of a society where cash transactions are common - Every day corruption is omnipresent.

by yc1010 11y ago

roel_v 11y ago

The black economy is a symptom of the problem not the cause 8| What sort of weird alternate universe can this sort of statement come from? Are you claiming tax dodging would go away if there wasn't austerity? So, 8 years ago there was no tax evasion in Greece, or at least no more than average?

yc1010 11y ago
Tax dodging will never go away, every economy has it, some companies from the likes of the US make an artform out of it especially the large majority funneling money via my country, Ireland. While I do not condone it, it is plainly obvious that the average person in Greece will have no "ethical" issues dodging taxes especially seeing that unemployment is high (hence black/gray economy might be the ONLY choice) and many people especially the younger generation did not rack up this debt and are the ones suffering the most, might rightly be asking themselves why they should be the ones suffering and paying for it via taxes.
- roel_v 11y ago
  The very reason they're in this predicament is that they don't pay taxes. And no, it's not just the 'magnates' (whatever that means) - it's everybody. They can't collect on 15 billion dollars a year, if they had collected just half of that the last 5 years, there would now not be a problem at all! Look, it doesn't make sense to argue with you since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about (no, US companies do not 'dodge' tax through Ireland, they'd be raped by the IRS if what they did was illegal), it's just that populist blaring like yours seems to take over any discussion on this topic - which I have fully internalized after 20 years on the internet, and still sometimes it irks me.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    It's funny how a very large part of this is because Greece is still for small transactions very much a cash society and that means that it is relatively easy to keep things off the books. The irony is that the current situation will make sure that nobody in Greece will ever trust a bank again and that in turn will make it a lot harder to collect those taxes. This won't blow over easily.
    - kamaal 11y ago
      As some one who comes from a country where tax evasion is common(India), I can tell you Greece's problems have just begun. And its not like introducing plastic money or online transactions will fix anything here. By now most of the Greeks would be so mentally conditioned to not paying taxes, any attempt from the government to make them pay will come across as a being handed out a very unfair deal. Most will feel cheated and being asked to make sacrifices out of their way. In fact this is the reason why its so difficult to turn around things in such countries. The issue is not technology or government policy. When you have a whole generation of people grow up in such a ecosystem, these practices seep into your culture and everyday life. You can only undo them gradually overtime, and sometimes it takes 2-3 generations to get out of it. Another defining characteristic of a society where cash transactions are common - Every day corruption is omnipresent.