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I agree that a code of conduct is a great idea but I'm really bummed to read that the Django CoC is going to be adopted by golang. 1. The Django CoC uses very

by EdiX 11y ago

I agree that a code of conduct is a great idea but I'm really bummed to read that the Django CoC is going to be adopted by golang. 1. The Django CoC uses very vague language on what it is forbidden and explicitly tells you that "this isn’t an exhaustive list of things that you can’t do" just to be extra vague in what constitutes unacceptable behaviour. 2. It does not define what process will be used to address CoC violations, being ejected from an OS project for violating the CoC can be a serious thing with personal and professional ramifications but an accused is not given the right to face their accuser nor the right to an impartial jury (which would be hard to do anyway since the accusation could be something like "he's making me anxious") 3. It overextends itself "violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them" which means that not only you are under the scrutiny of the kangaroo court when you are posting on golang spaces but everywhere else: ycombinator, reddit, your personal blog, etc. Honestly I feel like just writing this criticism is painting a target on my forehead, talk about safe spaces. I wouldn't be making this comment if CoCs hadn't already been used in bad faith to attempt to character assassinate OS contributors (for exmaple the Kubuntu debacle or this [1]) [1] https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2015/06/04/ https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2015/06/04/

danieldk 11y ago
There was a lengthy discussion on a CoC on the golang-nuts list it was concluded that (3) would should probably not be included for the time being. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-nuts/sy-YcVPADjg/bcO6LAr29EIJ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-nuts/sy-YcVPADj...
- EdiX 11y ago
  I've only read the first page and I already saw a problematic statement from A. Gerrand (which seems to be in charge of this CoC proposal). User Peter Kleiweg raises this concern "Who gets to decide what is racist? And even whether or not racist is a bad thing?" and while I disagree with him on this particular issue the answer that Gerrand gives is very problematic: "If it's speech that makes people feel unwelcome and discriminated against, then I personally believe that's a bad thing." the problem with this is that, for example, an open display of support for gay marriage will make some catholics (for example) unwelcome and discriminated against. This isn't even theoretical, this is an argument that actually happens in the real world, just not in the bubble inhabited by Gerrand, apparently.
  - odiroot 11y ago
    Where is Voltaire where you need him? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." (And yes, I am aware he didn't say these exact words himself.)
    - EdiX 11y ago
      In my experience people only give a fuck about voltaire when they don't happen to disapprove.
    - danieldk 11y ago
      I don't see what this has to do anything. Sure, if an article in a newspaper is censored by a government I fully agree. If I am on e.g. a technical list or attend a conference, I'd expect discussions about the subject-matter and offbeat comments about gender, race, or whatever.
    - d215 11y ago
      Maybe the spirit of Voltaire's work is captured in this proverb, but Voltaire never actually said or wrote this anywhere. Apparently it's a phrase from a biography of Voltaire by Evelyn Beatrice Hall.
      - odiroot 11y ago
        See the last line of my comment then.
    - ja30278 11y ago
      I prefer Milton here: “Though all winds of doctrine were let loose to play upon the earth, so truth be in the field, we do injuriously by licensing and prohibiting to misdoubt her strength. Let her and falsehood grapple, who ever knew truth put to the worse, in a free and open encounter.”
  - chipsy 11y ago
    Discomfort is not unwelcomeness. What you should be looking for is a situation in which direct concerns of Catholics are getting shouted down - that does happen(in an existence-proof sense), but it's not nearly as common as an internal "rationale of oppression" used to escape responsibility and consequence for beliefs that are directly harmful to others. "Do not deny me my belief, critique is tyranny" is a very common theme to defend all forms of discrimination, both from the positive side of "I do not think I am doing wrong myself" and the negative of "I am justified because we already know they are evil." You can still have schisms and nasty politics with a policy like this, since obviously the different sides of the discussion will value things unequally, but the goal is to at least maintain surface politeness and order so that small voices don't give up so quickly.
- nindalf 11y ago
  That link was discussed on reddit[1] as well and it appeared as if the overwhelming majority preferred not to introduce a code of conduct like Django's. I'm disappointed that their usual approach of "Less is more" didn't influence this decision as well. [1] - http://redd.it/3abyva http://redd.it/3abyva
manish_gill 11y ago
Huh, this completely puts me off that project.
ta140604 11y ago
Similar concerns (with more examples) have been raised in CoC discussion over on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/3abyva/a_code_of_conduct_for_the_go_community/ https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/3abyva/a_code_of_co...
zurn 11y ago
There are good reasons why rules regulating human social behaviour (such as legislation) are written in this "vague" way, not attempting to be formal-verification-level complete but relying upon human interpretation. It follows that to work well it needs the people doing the interpretation (judges, committees, ombudsman, etc) to be competent, and be selected so that people can have faith in them. Regarding your [1], the GNOME code of conduct referenced therein explicitly says "There is no official enforcement of these principles, and this should not be interpreted like a legal document". So maybe that CoC is being applied contrary to its design there.
- EdiX 11y ago
  > There are good reasons why rules regulating human social behaviour (such as legislation) are written in this "vague" way, not attempting to be formal-verification-level complete but relying upon human interpretation I wasn't arguing for formal verification, but you should notice that actual legislation is a lot less vague than the Django CoC. >It follows that to work well it needs the people doing the interpretation (judges, committees, ombudsman, etc) to be competent, and be selected so that people can have faith in them. And that's another problem with the Django CoC that I was mentioning, there's nothing there insuring that someone that's accused receives a due process, nor that all complaints are listened to equally.
  - zurn 11y ago
    The Django process seems to address these concerns: https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/enforcement-manual/ https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/enforcement-manual/ documents at length how the committee handling the violation reports is appointed, how they conduct their work, how their oversight works etc. Then, https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/reporting/ https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/reporting/) describes an appeal process: "Appealing: Only permanent resolutions (such as bans) may be appealed. To appeal a decision of the working group, contact the DSF Board at foundation@djangoproject.com with your appeal and the DSF board will review the case"
    - EdiX 11y ago
tspiteri 11y ago
I don't think the example you link to has anything to do with character assassination. The article lists the comments in a bug entry on a bug tracker, and points out two comments that were deleted. I happen to agree with the deletions, some comments have no place in a bug tracking system that should be used to fix bugs, not argue politics and accuse other people of malicious intent. Such comments are not conducive to bug fixing, so they have no place on a bug tracker. Deleted comment 1 included "But I doubt I would waste time on coding as I’m sure you’ll just make an excuse to reject it, just as you’re making excuses instead of fixing this bug." Deleted comment 2 included snippets like "except where they deliberately break it" and "but I’m sure it’s still their agenda to make it a dependency just because they want it to be".

by EdiX 11y ago

danieldk 11y ago

There was a lengthy discussion on a CoC on the golang-nuts list it was concluded that (3) would should probably not be included for the time being. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-nuts/sy-YcVPADjg/bcO6LAr29EIJ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-nuts/sy-YcVPADj...

EdiX 11y ago
I've only read the first page and I already saw a problematic statement from A. Gerrand (which seems to be in charge of this CoC proposal). User Peter Kleiweg raises this concern "Who gets to decide what is racist? And even whether or not racist is a bad thing?" and while I disagree with him on this particular issue the answer that Gerrand gives is very problematic: "If it's speech that makes people feel unwelcome and discriminated against, then I personally believe that's a bad thing." the problem with this is that, for example, an open display of support for gay marriage will make some catholics (for example) unwelcome and discriminated against. This isn't even theoretical, this is an argument that actually happens in the real world, just not in the bubble inhabited by Gerrand, apparently.
- odiroot 11y ago
  Where is Voltaire where you need him? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." (And yes, I am aware he didn't say these exact words himself.)
  - EdiX 11y ago
    In my experience people only give a fuck about voltaire when they don't happen to disapprove.
  - danieldk 11y ago
    I don't see what this has to do anything. Sure, if an article in a newspaper is censored by a government I fully agree. If I am on e.g. a technical list or attend a conference, I'd expect discussions about the subject-matter and offbeat comments about gender, race, or whatever.
  - d215 11y ago
    Maybe the spirit of Voltaire's work is captured in this proverb, but Voltaire never actually said or wrote this anywhere. Apparently it's a phrase from a biography of Voltaire by Evelyn Beatrice Hall.
    - odiroot 11y ago
      See the last line of my comment then.
  - ja30278 11y ago
    I prefer Milton here: “Though all winds of doctrine were let loose to play upon the earth, so truth be in the field, we do injuriously by licensing and prohibiting to misdoubt her strength. Let her and falsehood grapple, who ever knew truth put to the worse, in a free and open encounter.”
- chipsy 11y ago
  Discomfort is not unwelcomeness. What you should be looking for is a situation in which direct concerns of Catholics are getting shouted down - that does happen(in an existence-proof sense), but it's not nearly as common as an internal "rationale of oppression" used to escape responsibility and consequence for beliefs that are directly harmful to others. "Do not deny me my belief, critique is tyranny" is a very common theme to defend all forms of discrimination, both from the positive side of "I do not think I am doing wrong myself" and the negative of "I am justified because we already know they are evil." You can still have schisms and nasty politics with a policy like this, since obviously the different sides of the discussion will value things unequally, but the goal is to at least maintain surface politeness and order so that small voices don't give up so quickly.
nindalf 11y ago
That link was discussed on reddit[1] as well and it appeared as if the overwhelming majority preferred not to introduce a code of conduct like Django's. I'm disappointed that their usual approach of "Less is more" didn't influence this decision as well. [1] - http://redd.it/3abyva http://redd.it/3abyva

manish_gill 11y ago

Huh, this completely puts me off that project.

ta140604 11y ago

Similar concerns (with more examples) have been raised in CoC discussion over on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/3abyva/a_code_of_conduct_for_the_go_community/ https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/3abyva/a_code_of_co...

zurn 11y ago

There are good reasons why rules regulating human social behaviour (such as legislation) are written in this "vague" way, not attempting to be formal-verification-level complete but relying upon human interpretation. It follows that to work well it needs the people doing the interpretation (judges, committees, ombudsman, etc) to be competent, and be selected so that people can have faith in them. Regarding your [1], the GNOME code of conduct referenced therein explicitly says "There is no official enforcement of these principles, and this should not be interpreted like a legal document". So maybe that CoC is being applied contrary to its design there.

EdiX 11y ago
> There are good reasons why rules regulating human social behaviour (such as legislation) are written in this "vague" way, not attempting to be formal-verification-level complete but relying upon human interpretation I wasn't arguing for formal verification, but you should notice that actual legislation is a lot less vague than the Django CoC. >It follows that to work well it needs the people doing the interpretation (judges, committees, ombudsman, etc) to be competent, and be selected so that people can have faith in them. And that's another problem with the Django CoC that I was mentioning, there's nothing there insuring that someone that's accused receives a due process, nor that all complaints are listened to equally.
- zurn 11y ago
  The Django process seems to address these concerns: https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/enforcement-manual/ https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/enforcement-manual/ documents at length how the committee handling the violation reports is appointed, how they conduct their work, how their oversight works etc. Then, https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/reporting/ https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/reporting/) describes an appeal process: "Appealing: Only permanent resolutions (such as bans) may be appealed. To appeal a decision of the working group, contact the DSF Board at foundation@djangoproject.com with your appeal and the DSF board will review the case"
  - EdiX 11y ago

tspiteri 11y ago

I don't think the example you link to has anything to do with character assassination. The article lists the comments in a bug entry on a bug tracker, and points out two comments that were deleted. I happen to agree with the deletions, some comments have no place in a bug tracking system that should be used to fix bugs, not argue politics and accuse other people of malicious intent. Such comments are not conducive to bug fixing, so they have no place on a bug tracker. Deleted comment 1 included "But I doubt I would waste time on coding as I’m sure you’ll just make an excuse to reject it, just as you’re making excuses instead of fixing this bug." Deleted comment 2 included snippets like "except where they deliberately break it" and "but I’m sure it’s still their agenda to make it a dependency just because they want it to be".