16 ms·

Russ Cox: Go, Open Source, Community

149 points by agonzalezro 11y ago

codemac 11y ago
Was pleasantly surprised to see the veritably (at times) acidic rsc championing a code of conduct. Definitely will be beneficial to the community. I haven't heard about any incident that has lead to a CoC being necessary, which is awesome.
- AYBABTME 11y ago
  It's interesting that you say that, from my little interaction at Gophercon with him, he was a very nice and genuine person. In the parent article, he also mentions: For example, I have learned that when I am pressed for time I tend to write fewer words, with the end result that my emails seem not just hurried but blunt, impatient, even dismissive. That's not how I feel, but it's how I can come across, and that impression can be enough to make people think twice about using or contributing to Go. I realized I was doing this when some Go contributors sent me private email to let me know. Now, when I am pressed for time, I pay extra attention to what I'm writing, and I often write more than I naturally would, to make sure I'm sending the message I intend. which might relate to your point of view.
  - throwaway999666 11y ago
    Perhaps we should question the proliferation of coaxing more and more in smilies and pleasantries, when all that is really needed is a straightforward, factual answer. Smilies and pleasantries are fine, if they come up naturally. But why do people get slighted when someone replies to them with a straightforward – not rude, not crass, not sarcastic, just straightforward – answer? I've caught myself getting slighted at people I know who reply to texts or messages in a direct way. Now that everyone uses smilies for personal communication, the direct to-the-point style feels cold and dismissive. But then I realize that they might be perfectly kind and pleasant people in reality. They just have a different text/message style.
  - 0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
    My feelings are happier when you get to the point quickly and don't waste my time.
- jbarham 11y ago
  I've been reading Russ' emails for 15+ years since he was a Bell Labs wunderkind hacking on Plan 9. On the Plan 9 mailing list he was one of the most prolific and consistently helpful posters, so I think it's unfortunate that he comes across to you as being "acidic" when in real life he's obviously anything but. But as he said in his talk, when pressed for time he tends to make his emails brief, which may give the impression that he is curt, when really it's a weakness of the medium, not the person.
  - kylequest 11y ago
    When I read this response about bitwise NOT operator it definitely felt like an impatient and dismissive RTFM response. A patient and welcoming answer could've been much shorter: "hey, we use ^ instead of ~ for that". https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/golang-nuts/A9mCgLwyqxY https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/golang-nuts/A9mCgLwy...
    - codemac 11y ago
      There are piles of examples of Russ being curt, I'm quite surprised by the response my comment is receiving. I guess I shouldn't have presumed about Russ' reputation - but he definitely has a very negative reputation with me.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        Reading golang-nuts, he always came off as curt and "wise-ass" (of course, given his knowledge and experience, perhaps often justyfingly so, but still). And not in the over-the-top, theatrical way Linus does it which is mostly style, you feel there's real sneer.
        throwaway999666 11y ago
        > of course, given his knowledge and experience, perhaps often justyfingly so, but still. Always with the half-excuses for people with technical ability/track record. "Well he comes off as kind of rude, buut he kind of knows what he's doing so the arrogance is maybe warranted". Just goes to show that technical ability and dealing with people even in a technical setting are two very different things. I guess that is the reward for a technical track record? Being half-excused for lording it over other people? Disclaimer: I know nothing about Cox' online personality. I'm just addressing how people react to rude (or whatever the intent is) technical people.
- hollerith 11y ago
  I am surprised to see Russ Cox called "veritably (at times) acidic". Although I suppose it is possible it has changed, his behavior over the 1990s and 2000s on the mailing list for Plan 9 was consistently polite and kindly. He was much more ready than most to help with a bug fix or with information. The reason I continued to read that mailing list for all those years is how much I was learning from his posts (and to a lesser extent those of a few other participants). The same readiness to help and politeness was on display when as a complete stranger I wrote to him a few years ago.
EdiX 11y ago
I agree that a code of conduct is a great idea but I'm really bummed to read that the Django CoC is going to be adopted by golang. 1. The Django CoC uses very vague language on what it is forbidden and explicitly tells you that "this isn’t an exhaustive list of things that you can’t do" just to be extra vague in what constitutes unacceptable behaviour. 2. It does not define what process will be used to address CoC violations, being ejected from an OS project for violating the CoC can be a serious thing with personal and professional ramifications but an accused is not given the right to face their accuser nor the right to an impartial jury (which would be hard to do anyway since the accusation could be something like "he's making me anxious") 3. It overextends itself "violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them" which means that not only you are under the scrutiny of the kangaroo court when you are posting on golang spaces but everywhere else: ycombinator, reddit, your personal blog, etc. Honestly I feel like just writing this criticism is painting a target on my forehead, talk about safe spaces. I wouldn't be making this comment if CoCs hadn't already been used in bad faith to attempt to character assassinate OS contributors (for exmaple the Kubuntu debacle or this [1]) [1] https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2015/06/04/ https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2015/06/04/
- danieldk 11y ago
  There was a lengthy discussion on a CoC on the golang-nuts list it was concluded that (3) would should probably not be included for the time being. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-nuts/sy-YcVPADjg/bcO6LAr29EIJ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-nuts/sy-YcVPADj...
  - EdiX 11y ago
    I've only read the first page and I already saw a problematic statement from A. Gerrand (which seems to be in charge of this CoC proposal). User Peter Kleiweg raises this concern "Who gets to decide what is racist? And even whether or not racist is a bad thing?" and while I disagree with him on this particular issue the answer that Gerrand gives is very problematic: "If it's speech that makes people feel unwelcome and discriminated against, then I personally believe that's a bad thing." the problem with this is that, for example, an open display of support for gay marriage will make some catholics (for example) unwelcome and discriminated against. This isn't even theoretical, this is an argument that actually happens in the real world, just not in the bubble inhabited by Gerrand, apparently.
egeozcan 11y ago
> At the same time, Go's static typing avoids much of the repetition of traditional statically typed languages As a happy user of Go, I usually find myself writing slightly more code than C#. Maybe it's because of the lack of generics or maybe it's because that I have 10x more experience in C#. To me, it's interesting to read this.
- krat0sprakhar 11y ago
  I believe Russ is alluding to Go's type inference which Java / C++ / C# dont have.
  - mseepgood 11y ago
    C# and C++11 have Go-like type inference (var, auto).
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - sacado2 11y ago
      Java's lambdas too.
  - aikah 11y ago
    Go has type inference but having to declare types everywhere hardly make a language more "verbose". The problem with Java(lang) is the culture. Instead of writing programs in a pragmatic way, Java devs feel the need to forcefully over architecture code bases, because there are afraid that a colleague looking at their code will not find it JEEish enough. Obviously Go doesn't have the same culture since it doesn't force developers into writing classes everywhere. So it's easier to hack something quickly with a bunch of functions and variables, like in most dynamic languages.
    - threeseed 11y ago
      Some Java developers not all. It's a very big ecosystem after all. You typically don't see the same patterns used in Dropwizard, Play and Vert.x style applications. And the rationale behind was not out of peer pressure but just reflective of an era in software development where you were taught to abstract everything to make it easier to implement changes in the future. But that time has somewhat passed and even libraries like Spring moved to annotations over XML bindings.
dwcmpfrt 11y ago
Reddit community has the "down with chairman pao", what will the go community have?
issaria 11y ago
Maybe Rob Pike can say something about this CoC thing. Don't really like the way Russ does things.
- kylequest 11y ago
  Rob Pike is a great example of how you don't have to be a jerk even when you are busy.
- rsc 11y ago
  I'm sorry for that, but can you elaborate? If something I'm doing bothers people, I'd really like to know what it is so that I can try to address it. Thanks.
  - issaria 11y ago
    You did a great job improving the language. For me, CoC is where programming meets politics. Whom gained benefit from their current position is likely to impose those rules to protect their now interest. Pretty much there is a soul behind each language, Ricky Hicky for Clojure, Guido van Rossum for Python, Matz for Ruby, and Rob Pike for Go. Those people are not insecure, and I never felt them to be so aggressive.
    - rsc 11y ago
      FWIW, I'm sorry you see the code of conduct as an attempt to impose rules to protect "my" or "our" current position. It is very much an attempt to bring as many new people as possible into the Go community, not to exclude people.
      - issaria 11y ago
        Thanks for taking time to respond to my doubt. Would like to talk to you more.
        rsc 11y ago
0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
Does the political climate in CA demand that people ignore subtle nuances about inclusiveness? Linus said, "...I've literally had developers who were working on things that I didn't really like, but I didn't shut down early enough. They worked on it for a long time; they felt that it was ready, they submitted it to me, and I said "no this was horrible" because at that point I had to make a decision. And at least in one of those cases I had some other friends basically email me later and saying "the guy is suicidal"." http://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/395/how-do-i-deal-with-enthusiastic-contributors-who-damage-more-than-they-help http://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/395/how-do-i-d... I think you imply a CoC, and Russ's style needs no improving. If you must adopt a CoC why don't you assume people will behave badly and provide a workaround instead of relying on virtue.

149 points by agonzalezro 11y ago

Was pleasantly surprised to see the veritably (at times) acidic rsc championing a code of conduct. Definitely will be beneficial to the community. I haven't heard about any incident that has lead to a CoC being necessary, which is awesome.

AYBABTME 11y ago
It's interesting that you say that, from my little interaction at Gophercon with him, he was a very nice and genuine person. In the parent article, he also mentions: For example, I have learned that when I am pressed for time I tend to write fewer words, with the end result that my emails seem not just hurried but blunt, impatient, even dismissive. That's not how I feel, but it's how I can come across, and that impression can be enough to make people think twice about using or contributing to Go. I realized I was doing this when some Go contributors sent me private email to let me know. Now, when I am pressed for time, I pay extra attention to what I'm writing, and I often write more than I naturally would, to make sure I'm sending the message I intend. which might relate to your point of view.
- throwaway999666 11y ago
  Perhaps we should question the proliferation of coaxing more and more in smilies and pleasantries, when all that is really needed is a straightforward, factual answer. Smilies and pleasantries are fine, if they come up naturally. But why do people get slighted when someone replies to them with a straightforward – not rude, not crass, not sarcastic, just straightforward – answer? I've caught myself getting slighted at people I know who reply to texts or messages in a direct way. Now that everyone uses smilies for personal communication, the direct to-the-point style feels cold and dismissive. But then I realize that they might be perfectly kind and pleasant people in reality. They just have a different text/message style.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
  My feelings are happier when you get to the point quickly and don't waste my time.
jbarham 11y ago
I've been reading Russ' emails for 15+ years since he was a Bell Labs wunderkind hacking on Plan 9. On the Plan 9 mailing list he was one of the most prolific and consistently helpful posters, so I think it's unfortunate that he comes across to you as being "acidic" when in real life he's obviously anything but. But as he said in his talk, when pressed for time he tends to make his emails brief, which may give the impression that he is curt, when really it's a weakness of the medium, not the person.
- kylequest 11y ago
  When I read this response about bitwise NOT operator it definitely felt like an impatient and dismissive RTFM response. A patient and welcoming answer could've been much shorter: "hey, we use ^ instead of ~ for that". https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/golang-nuts/A9mCgLwyqxY https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/golang-nuts/A9mCgLwy...
  - codemac 11y ago
    There are piles of examples of Russ being curt, I'm quite surprised by the response my comment is receiving. I guess I shouldn't have presumed about Russ' reputation - but he definitely has a very negative reputation with me.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      Reading golang-nuts, he always came off as curt and "wise-ass" (of course, given his knowledge and experience, perhaps often justyfingly so, but still). And not in the over-the-top, theatrical way Linus does it which is mostly style, you feel there's real sneer.
      - throwaway999666 11y ago
        > of course, given his knowledge and experience, perhaps often justyfingly so, but still. Always with the half-excuses for people with technical ability/track record. "Well he comes off as kind of rude, buut he kind of knows what he's doing so the arrogance is maybe warranted". Just goes to show that technical ability and dealing with people even in a technical setting are two very different things. I guess that is the reward for a technical track record? Being half-excused for lording it over other people? Disclaimer: I know nothing about Cox' online personality. I'm just addressing how people react to rude (or whatever the intent is) technical people.
hollerith 11y ago
I am surprised to see Russ Cox called "veritably (at times) acidic". Although I suppose it is possible it has changed, his behavior over the 1990s and 2000s on the mailing list for Plan 9 was consistently polite and kindly. He was much more ready than most to help with a bug fix or with information. The reason I continued to read that mailing list for all those years is how much I was learning from his posts (and to a lesser extent those of a few other participants). The same readiness to help and politeness was on display when as a complete stranger I wrote to him a few years ago.

EdiX 11y ago

I agree that a code of conduct is a great idea but I'm really bummed to read that the Django CoC is going to be adopted by golang. 1. The Django CoC uses very vague language on what it is forbidden and explicitly tells you that "this isn’t an exhaustive list of things that you can’t do" just to be extra vague in what constitutes unacceptable behaviour. 2. It does not define what process will be used to address CoC violations, being ejected from an OS project for violating the CoC can be a serious thing with personal and professional ramifications but an accused is not given the right to face their accuser nor the right to an impartial jury (which would be hard to do anyway since the accusation could be something like "he's making me anxious") 3. It overextends itself "violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them" which means that not only you are under the scrutiny of the kangaroo court when you are posting on golang spaces but everywhere else: ycombinator, reddit, your personal blog, etc. Honestly I feel like just writing this criticism is painting a target on my forehead, talk about safe spaces. I wouldn't be making this comment if CoCs hadn't already been used in bad faith to attempt to character assassinate OS contributors (for exmaple the Kubuntu debacle or this [1]) [1] https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2015/06/04/ https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2015/06/04/

danieldk 11y ago
There was a lengthy discussion on a CoC on the golang-nuts list it was concluded that (3) would should probably not be included for the time being. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-nuts/sy-YcVPADjg/bcO6LAr29EIJ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-nuts/sy-YcVPADj...
- EdiX 11y ago
  I've only read the first page and I already saw a problematic statement from A. Gerrand (which seems to be in charge of this CoC proposal). User Peter Kleiweg raises this concern "Who gets to decide what is racist? And even whether or not racist is a bad thing?" and while I disagree with him on this particular issue the answer that Gerrand gives is very problematic: "If it's speech that makes people feel unwelcome and discriminated against, then I personally believe that's a bad thing." the problem with this is that, for example, an open display of support for gay marriage will make some catholics (for example) unwelcome and discriminated against. This isn't even theoretical, this is an argument that actually happens in the real world, just not in the bubble inhabited by Gerrand, apparently.

egeozcan 11y ago

> At the same time, Go's static typing avoids much of the repetition of traditional statically typed languages As a happy user of Go, I usually find myself writing slightly more code than C#. Maybe it's because of the lack of generics or maybe it's because that I have 10x more experience in C#. To me, it's interesting to read this.

krat0sprakhar 11y ago
I believe Russ is alluding to Go's type inference which Java / C++ / C# dont have.
- mseepgood 11y ago
  C# and C++11 have Go-like type inference (var, auto).
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - sacado2 11y ago
    Java's lambdas too.
- aikah 11y ago
  Go has type inference but having to declare types everywhere hardly make a language more "verbose". The problem with Java(lang) is the culture. Instead of writing programs in a pragmatic way, Java devs feel the need to forcefully over architecture code bases, because there are afraid that a colleague looking at their code will not find it JEEish enough. Obviously Go doesn't have the same culture since it doesn't force developers into writing classes everywhere. So it's easier to hack something quickly with a bunch of functions and variables, like in most dynamic languages.
  - threeseed 11y ago
    Some Java developers not all. It's a very big ecosystem after all. You typically don't see the same patterns used in Dropwizard, Play and Vert.x style applications. And the rationale behind was not out of peer pressure but just reflective of an era in software development where you were taught to abstract everything to make it easier to implement changes in the future. But that time has somewhat passed and even libraries like Spring moved to annotations over XML bindings.

dwcmpfrt 11y ago

Reddit community has the "down with chairman pao", what will the go community have?

issaria 11y ago

Maybe Rob Pike can say something about this CoC thing. Don't really like the way Russ does things.

kylequest 11y ago
Rob Pike is a great example of how you don't have to be a jerk even when you are busy.
rsc 11y ago
I'm sorry for that, but can you elaborate? If something I'm doing bothers people, I'd really like to know what it is so that I can try to address it. Thanks.
- issaria 11y ago
  You did a great job improving the language. For me, CoC is where programming meets politics. Whom gained benefit from their current position is likely to impose those rules to protect their now interest. Pretty much there is a soul behind each language, Ricky Hicky for Clojure, Guido van Rossum for Python, Matz for Ruby, and Rob Pike for Go. Those people are not insecure, and I never felt them to be so aggressive.
  - rsc 11y ago
    FWIW, I'm sorry you see the code of conduct as an attempt to impose rules to protect "my" or "our" current position. It is very much an attempt to bring as many new people as possible into the Go community, not to exclude people.
    - issaria 11y ago
      Thanks for taking time to respond to my doubt. Would like to talk to you more.
      - rsc 11y ago

0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago

Does the political climate in CA demand that people ignore subtle nuances about inclusiveness? Linus said, "...I've literally had developers who were working on things that I didn't really like, but I didn't shut down early enough. They worked on it for a long time; they felt that it was ready, they submitted it to me, and I said "no this was horrible" because at that point I had to make a decision. And at least in one of those cases I had some other friends basically email me later and saying "the guy is suicidal"." http://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/395/how-do-i-deal-with-enthusiastic-contributors-who-damage-more-than-they-help http://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/395/how-do-i-d... I think you imply a CoC, and Russ's style needs no improving. If you must adopt a CoC why don't you assume people will behave badly and provide a workaround instead of relying on virtue.