4 ms·

Whatever you lose in the capability to lie for immediate personal merit you gain in the ability to stroke the political and emotional biases of people through d

Whatever you lose in the capability to lie for immediate personal merit you gain in the ability to stroke the political and emotional biases of people through distortion and disinformation in self-serving echo chambers that they have no desire to escape from. The use of statistical learning to create targeted user experiences will only exacerbate this. It works because one generally doesn't read because they like to learn, so much as learn what they like to read. The web is a formidable vehicle for sowing confusion and ignorance, as much as it is a place to obtain knowledge.

tokenadult 11y ago
I think you have captured the nub of this issue. I read the article and then shared it among my Facebook friends after seeing it here. There, my tagline was "I'd like to see this happen, and that's the truth, but I don't expect this to happen, because I see Internet technology used every day to spread lies around." Truth-seeking is HARD, because it disturbs personal prejudices, and many people don't make the effort to seek truth even when verified facts are spoon fed to them. (I should probably write that last part of that last sentence as "everybody prefers factually incorrect prejudices to verified facts at least some of the time".)
jsprogrammer 11y ago
>Whatever you lose in the capability to lie for immediate personal merit you gain in the ability to stroke the political and emotional biases of people through distortion and disinformation in self-serving echo chambers that they have no desire to escape from. Sorry, how did 'the ability to stroke the political and emotional biases of people through distortion and disinformation in self-serving echo chambers' not exist (and in even worse form) when you could lie?
- Swizec 11y ago
  I think that's the point. Without lying, political and social structures of humans break down. Lying is literally what enables us to work and live together. Even something as simple as telling a friend or coworker that that thing they do isn't that annoying counts as lying.
  - Florin_Andrei 11y ago
    > Lying is literally what enables us to work and live together. That's actually a pretty tough indictment of human nature, if true.
    - kstenerud 11y ago
      Lying/deception is practiced by virtually all life forms, both for constructive and destructive purposes. It is a necessity for the resilience of complex organizational behavior.
    - eCa 11y ago
      Recommended viewing: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/
    - pmalynin 11y ago
      People are "taught" to lie since the childhood and passed as "good manners". Ex: >How are you feeling. >Good. Or my favourite: >Wow, good job! People learn by example, and they see these lies (in their technical definition) as acceptable and even encouraged behaviour and hence follow. Then we have parents lying to their children all the time, and then later when they learn the truth they will likely carry on their tradition of lying (aka Santa, Monster Under The Bed ... God) to their kids because, hell, my parents did it. The list goes on and on. Or maybe I'm just a sad cynic.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    I guess I don't understand the argument's construction then. Lying could almost, literally be defined as: 'the ability to stroke the political and emotional biases of people through distortion and disinformation in self-serving echo chambers'. The OP is claiming that eliminating lying actually increases the occurrence of distortion and disinformation (through an undisclosed mechanism). To me, this would seem to be contradiction: eliminating the bad thing actually increase the occurrence of the bad thing.
    - mapt 11y ago
itgoon 11y ago
People don't want to hear the truth. They want to hear they already know the truth.
- DenisM 11y ago
  I often wonder why that is so. Perhaps there is some real cost to changing your opinion. What is that cost, and how can it be lowered? Or raised, for that matter?
  - x5n1 11y ago
    Usually there is a reason people believe what they believe. It's called motivated reasoning. For instance I know my religion is full of shit, but it's a very important part of my identity. Therefore I must find reasons to continue to believe in it and defend ideas that it puts forward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    At the very least, you have to parse the new information and then understand what it means (ie. which beliefs of mine now change and how).
  - Qantourisc 11y ago
    The cost ? Well lets take this into the extreme. Lets assume you adopt a new opinion that a life is only worth it's economical value. The amount of mental work to integrate that believe in your current set of opinions (by changing them) is huge. So you'd rather not do it. Another example: the lie your company is on a good path. Knowing accepting it is on a bad path, means a lot of work. And as we know humans are lazy by design.
  - tormeh 11y ago
    Socially: Admitting you were wrong makes you look incompetent. If you were wrong then, why should anyone listen to you now? Physiologically: Changing ingrained opinions on which many others are formed probably requires a good deal of brain re-wiring and may require solid plasticity. I'm unsure how much of a problem this is for the brain. I guess there are a lot of other costs, but I can't come up with more.

tokenadult 11y ago

I think you have captured the nub of this issue. I read the article and then shared it among my Facebook friends after seeing it here. There, my tagline was "I'd like to see this happen, and that's the truth, but I don't expect this to happen, because I see Internet technology used every day to spread lies around." Truth-seeking is HARD, because it disturbs personal prejudices, and many people don't make the effort to seek truth even when verified facts are spoon fed to them. (I should probably write that last part of that last sentence as "everybody prefers factually incorrect prejudices to verified facts at least some of the time".)

jsprogrammer 11y ago

>Whatever you lose in the capability to lie for immediate personal merit you gain in the ability to stroke the political and emotional biases of people through distortion and disinformation in self-serving echo chambers that they have no desire to escape from. Sorry, how did 'the ability to stroke the political and emotional biases of people through distortion and disinformation in self-serving echo chambers' not exist (and in even worse form) when you could lie?

Swizec 11y ago
I think that's the point. Without lying, political and social structures of humans break down. Lying is literally what enables us to work and live together. Even something as simple as telling a friend or coworker that that thing they do isn't that annoying counts as lying.
- Florin_Andrei 11y ago
  > Lying is literally what enables us to work and live together. That's actually a pretty tough indictment of human nature, if true.
  - kstenerud 11y ago
    Lying/deception is practiced by virtually all life forms, both for constructive and destructive purposes. It is a necessity for the resilience of complex organizational behavior.
  - eCa 11y ago
    Recommended viewing: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/
  - pmalynin 11y ago
    People are "taught" to lie since the childhood and passed as "good manners". Ex: >How are you feeling. >Good. Or my favourite: >Wow, good job! People learn by example, and they see these lies (in their technical definition) as acceptable and even encouraged behaviour and hence follow. Then we have parents lying to their children all the time, and then later when they learn the truth they will likely carry on their tradition of lying (aka Santa, Monster Under The Bed ... God) to their kids because, hell, my parents did it. The list goes on and on. Or maybe I'm just a sad cynic.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  I guess I don't understand the argument's construction then. Lying could almost, literally be defined as: 'the ability to stroke the political and emotional biases of people through distortion and disinformation in self-serving echo chambers'. The OP is claiming that eliminating lying actually increases the occurrence of distortion and disinformation (through an undisclosed mechanism). To me, this would seem to be contradiction: eliminating the bad thing actually increase the occurrence of the bad thing.
  - mapt 11y ago

itgoon 11y ago

People don't want to hear the truth. They want to hear they already know the truth.

DenisM 11y ago
I often wonder why that is so. Perhaps there is some real cost to changing your opinion. What is that cost, and how can it be lowered? Or raised, for that matter?
- x5n1 11y ago
  Usually there is a reason people believe what they believe. It's called motivated reasoning. For instance I know my religion is full of shit, but it's a very important part of my identity. Therefore I must find reasons to continue to believe in it and defend ideas that it puts forward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  At the very least, you have to parse the new information and then understand what it means (ie. which beliefs of mine now change and how).
- Qantourisc 11y ago
  The cost ? Well lets take this into the extreme. Lets assume you adopt a new opinion that a life is only worth it's economical value. The amount of mental work to integrate that believe in your current set of opinions (by changing them) is huge. So you'd rather not do it. Another example: the lie your company is on a good path. Knowing accepting it is on a bad path, means a lot of work. And as we know humans are lazy by design.
- tormeh 11y ago
  Socially: Admitting you were wrong makes you look incompetent. If you were wrong then, why should anyone listen to you now? Physiologically: Changing ingrained opinions on which many others are formed probably requires a good deal of brain re-wiring and may require solid plasticity. I'm unsure how much of a problem this is for the brain. I guess there are a lot of other costs, but I can't come up with more.