4 ms·

I don't agree that it's "human nature." This type of behavior is significantly more pronounced among programmers, "geeks", and gamers. I don't hear administra

by jaawn 11y ago

I don't agree that it's "human nature." This type of behavior is significantly more pronounced among programmers, "geeks", and gamers. I don't hear administrative assistants bickering over calendar software, or post-it note dispensers. I don't hear many of the business majors being pretentious about their choice in spreadsheet software. Everyone else seems to be a bit more focused on the result of their work, not how they get it done. They certainly don't seem to take pride in their choice of tool. Imagine if a construction worker felt self-important because he uses the Aero Hammer 7, while they use the clearly inferior Aqua X Mallet. It's silly. I don't think this behavior is as widespread as many here think it is. (edit: widespread among the general population)

joesmo 11y ago
The professions you should be comparing programming to in this case are not admin assistants or spreadsheet users. Of course they won't care because it makes no difference to them. How about computer graphic artists. Do you think they care if they use 3ds Max or Rhino or whatever exists these days? How about musicians? Do you think they care if they use FL Studio or Reason or Cubase or Logic? I could go on and on. The answer is a resounding YES to both of those questions by the way. They care just as much as programmers do about their software. It's not limited to software either. Writers who write by hand care about their pen. A lot. People who put a lot of energy into their craft care. Is that human nature? Absolutely. Is it human nature to then compare and try to set oneself apart from the rest? Of course.
- jaawn 11y ago
  It is true that I over-simplified and used careers that aren't very similar, but that was kind of the point. > Of course they won't care because it makes no difference to them. Exactly. My point is that it also shouldn't matter to programmers, in the same fashion. Why does it matter if you use Emacs or Vim or Notepad? Why does it matter if you use Ubuntu or Windows or OSX? If you can produce high-quality work that is maintainable in roughly the same amount of time as someone else, the tool you use doesn't matter. People should have preferences and they should be able to use the tools that are comfortable for them. However, any self-important feelings based on these preferences are silly and don't really make sense. That was my intended point originally.
  - sanderjd 11y ago
    Well, for better or worse, it matters because programming is (almost) never a solo activity, thus tools are frequently dictated by a larger community, so advocating for the tools you feel more comfortable and productive in might increase the likelihood that you'll get to use them. From there it is a fine line to walk between advocating merits and seeming self-important or arrogant.
    - jaawn 11y ago
      This is very true. In order to be collaborative, we must use the same tools, or compatible tools. You could of course have a reasonable, constructive debate about the merits of different source code management systems, for example. However, it would be strange to feel personally attacked if someone doesn't like your preference, or to think you're better than someone else because of their preference. It would be about compromising.
  - gknoy 11y ago
    > Why does it matter if you use Emacs or Vim or Notepad? > Why does it matter if you use Ubuntu or Windows or OSX? > If you can produce high-quality work ... the tool you use doesn't matter. In all of these things, there is a shallow similarity, and a deeper difference that is only visible to a user with expertise. Tools have Quality, and experts care about it. Professionals care deeply about their tools. Writers care about pen qualities, musicians care about software and instruments, hunters care about their weapon. Programmers care deeply about our editors, languages, source control, and computer platform. Photographers care about their equipment. Comparing Vim/Emacs with Notepad is like comparing whether to use a computer versus writing by hand -- nearly no professional writer will choose to use a pen and paper when they have the power of a word processor at hand, and similarly nearly no programmer will choose Notepad over a professional code editing tool. You'll quickly find that many people who care about writing by hand care deeply about not just pens, but the ink they use within them -- the depth of nerdiness in the fountain pen forums is amazing. Consider looking at "fountain pen reviews", for example. People usually don't care about post-it brands or pen brands (or band-aids or toothpaste) because, in most cases, they are __functionally equivalent__, so you can decide on price or convenience. If one is not a discerning user, in theory one might buy a set of kitchen knives, a coffee maker, a car, a suit, or a computer based solely on price. Most of us have been burned enough by low-quality tools to care enough to discern Good from Bad. As programmers, we have the expertise to compare Python vs Ruby, or Emacs vs Vim, or Linux/OSX/Windows. We might not have the same depth of caring in other subjects (cars, cooking knives, pens, phones), and therefore do not engage in the same degree of holy-war that we tend towards when evangelizing our favorite tools.
kendallpark 11y ago
Just look at the whole health/fitness sphere. You've got people that never eat X because reasons. Crossfitters. Serious weightlifters judge other people at the gym for using machine weights. I've found that ruggers have a superiority complex when it comes to football ("they wear pads, what wimps!"). There are also sorts of groups in different fields that consider themselves more hardcore than the masses. It definitely is human nature.
solotronics 11y ago
Actually a great example of this is Lincoln Precision vs Miller Syncrowave TIG welding equipment. Amongst welders there is heated argument about Lincoln vs Miller. Miller Syncrowave being the best of course ;]
- jaawn 11y ago
  Debate/argument is to be expected. But, do you think welders who prefer Lincoln Precision are "lesser" than you? Do you feel like they don't belong? Or do you merely think they are mistaken? These questions illustrate the difference I'm trying to describe.

by jaawn 11y ago

joesmo 11y ago

The professions you should be comparing programming to in this case are not admin assistants or spreadsheet users. Of course they won't care because it makes no difference to them. How about computer graphic artists. Do you think they care if they use 3ds Max or Rhino or whatever exists these days? How about musicians? Do you think they care if they use FL Studio or Reason or Cubase or Logic? I could go on and on. The answer is a resounding YES to both of those questions by the way. They care just as much as programmers do about their software. It's not limited to software either. Writers who write by hand care about their pen. A lot. People who put a lot of energy into their craft care. Is that human nature? Absolutely. Is it human nature to then compare and try to set oneself apart from the rest? Of course.

jaawn 11y ago
It is true that I over-simplified and used careers that aren't very similar, but that was kind of the point. > Of course they won't care because it makes no difference to them. Exactly. My point is that it also shouldn't matter to programmers, in the same fashion. Why does it matter if you use Emacs or Vim or Notepad? Why does it matter if you use Ubuntu or Windows or OSX? If you can produce high-quality work that is maintainable in roughly the same amount of time as someone else, the tool you use doesn't matter. People should have preferences and they should be able to use the tools that are comfortable for them. However, any self-important feelings based on these preferences are silly and don't really make sense. That was my intended point originally.
- sanderjd 11y ago
  Well, for better or worse, it matters because programming is (almost) never a solo activity, thus tools are frequently dictated by a larger community, so advocating for the tools you feel more comfortable and productive in might increase the likelihood that you'll get to use them. From there it is a fine line to walk between advocating merits and seeming self-important or arrogant.
  - jaawn 11y ago
    This is very true. In order to be collaborative, we must use the same tools, or compatible tools. You could of course have a reasonable, constructive debate about the merits of different source code management systems, for example. However, it would be strange to feel personally attacked if someone doesn't like your preference, or to think you're better than someone else because of their preference. It would be about compromising.
- gknoy 11y ago
  > Why does it matter if you use Emacs or Vim or Notepad? > Why does it matter if you use Ubuntu or Windows or OSX? > If you can produce high-quality work ... the tool you use doesn't matter. In all of these things, there is a shallow similarity, and a deeper difference that is only visible to a user with expertise. Tools have Quality, and experts care about it. Professionals care deeply about their tools. Writers care about pen qualities, musicians care about software and instruments, hunters care about their weapon. Programmers care deeply about our editors, languages, source control, and computer platform. Photographers care about their equipment. Comparing Vim/Emacs with Notepad is like comparing whether to use a computer versus writing by hand -- nearly no professional writer will choose to use a pen and paper when they have the power of a word processor at hand, and similarly nearly no programmer will choose Notepad over a professional code editing tool. You'll quickly find that many people who care about writing by hand care deeply about not just pens, but the ink they use within them -- the depth of nerdiness in the fountain pen forums is amazing. Consider looking at "fountain pen reviews", for example. People usually don't care about post-it brands or pen brands (or band-aids or toothpaste) because, in most cases, they are __functionally equivalent__, so you can decide on price or convenience. If one is not a discerning user, in theory one might buy a set of kitchen knives, a coffee maker, a car, a suit, or a computer based solely on price. Most of us have been burned enough by low-quality tools to care enough to discern Good from Bad. As programmers, we have the expertise to compare Python vs Ruby, or Emacs vs Vim, or Linux/OSX/Windows. We might not have the same depth of caring in other subjects (cars, cooking knives, pens, phones), and therefore do not engage in the same degree of holy-war that we tend towards when evangelizing our favorite tools.

kendallpark 11y ago

Just look at the whole health/fitness sphere. You've got people that never eat X because reasons. Crossfitters. Serious weightlifters judge other people at the gym for using machine weights. I've found that ruggers have a superiority complex when it comes to football ("they wear pads, what wimps!"). There are also sorts of groups in different fields that consider themselves more hardcore than the masses. It definitely is human nature.

solotronics 11y ago

Actually a great example of this is Lincoln Precision vs Miller Syncrowave TIG welding equipment. Amongst welders there is heated argument about Lincoln vs Miller. Miller Syncrowave being the best of course ;]

jaawn 11y ago
Debate/argument is to be expected. But, do you think welders who prefer Lincoln Precision are "lesser" than you? Do you feel like they don't belong? Or do you merely think they are mistaken? These questions illustrate the difference I'm trying to describe.