4 ms·

There is a slight difference between a country defeated twice with millions dead an bomb to ashes and a country in debt because of "cheap" loans. thats the tl;d

by ben_bai 11y ago

There is a slight difference between a country defeated twice with millions dead an bomb to ashes and a country in debt because of "cheap" loans. thats the tl;dr explaination.

rtpg 11y ago
if you read the article, you'd see that it's not just postwar Germany, but many other countries who only recover after a massive devaluation of their debt. Besides, austerity has proven countless times not to work, so why would Germany keep on insisting on it?
- digitalengineer 11y ago
  It's part of their (and our Dutch) culture. Protestant / Calvinist. 'We were born in to sin and must work hard to reach paradise'. This is why the Greek bashing in the papers has been so effective. They were 'lazy, bureaucrats, and what not. (Southern country's are more laid back. Catholic faith has forgiveness and starting over as main themes.
  - mafribe 11y ago
    Greek bashing? The Greek airforce has [1] 156 F-16s, an airplane that's $165 million a piece new. Why on earth does Greece, a NATO country need 156 F-16s? Could they easily be sold for a couple of billions on the second hard market? Nah perish the tought! Greece needs to be the largest importer of conventional weapons in Europe and its military spending must be the highest in the European Union (relative to G.D.P) [2]. Greece must be “by far” the country with the largest share of military personnel to population in the EU. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Hellenic_Air_Force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Hellen... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Greece#Conscription.2C_budget.2C_international_operations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Greece#Conscriptio...
    - digitalengineer 11y ago
      The military hardware was part of the deal. Bought from Germany and France in large parts...
      - mafribe 11y ago
        What are you talking about? Neither the German or the French airforce operate or did operate F-16s [1] to the best of my knowledge. The article [2] makes it sound like the planes were directly acquired from General Dynamics, the manufacturer. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_operators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_operators#Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting...
        digitalengineer 11y ago
        (1) "Athens' fondness for weaponry, and willingness of Germany and France to feed it, under fire as Greece struggles with debt crisis" (2) (1) http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military... (2) The Submarine Deals That Helped Sink Greecehttp://www.lepointinternational.com/it/politica/europa/550-the-submarine-deals-that-helped-sink-greece-.html http://www.lepointinternational.com/it/politica/europa/550-t...
        mafribe 11y ago
        Did you read the articles? Merkel's reaction was instant. "She immediately said: 'But we never asked you to spend so much of your GDP on defence, Quite. Don't by weapons if you don't need them and can't afford them. And nobody prevents Greece from selling a few of those sweet F-16s.
- mhd 11y ago
  Ah, the "proven facts" of economic theories on a global scale...
- MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
  Is that universally true? Ireland, Portugal and Spain were hit hard too by the financial crisis, but they are making a recovery.
  - rtpg 11y ago
    Googling about this to confirm things made me find this pretty neat public data graph tool from google https://www.google.co.jp/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:es:el:it&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:es:el:it:fr:de:ie:pt&ifdim=country_group&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false https://www.google.co.jp/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa... Basically Spain and Greece are in a different category from the rest of the EU (at least w.r.t. unemployment). Spain is recovering like Greece is, though Greece is suffering more from the precarity of their initial situation. But Spain is still at 22% unemployment Spain is also seeing negative GDP growth since the start of the recession, and isn't expected to hit positive GDP growth until 2018 at the earliest.
    - MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
      Interesting, even when including Latvia/Lithuania/Estonia, Greece and Spain are still outliers. This will be interesting.
elorant 11y ago
Is there? http://www.truth-out.org/speakout/item/24456-the-math-of-mass-starvation-and-murder-germany-in-greece-during-world-war-ii http://www.truth-out.org/speakout/item/24456-the-math-of-mas... I would urge everyone here to spend a little time and read the above article. I'm pretty sure you'll learn things you couldn't even imagine.
fineman 11y ago
Yeah, the Germans deserved their debt. TL;DR - they killed a few people. The Greeks are like people who bought more home than they could afford because a bank offered them a predatory loan. But unlike the USA, Greece can't print money to make it go away. So they're morally deficient.

by ben_bai 11y ago

There is a slight difference between a country defeated twice with millions dead an bomb to ashes and a country in debt because of "cheap" loans. thats the tl;dr explaination.

rtpg 11y ago

if you read the article, you'd see that it's not just postwar Germany, but many other countries who only recover after a massive devaluation of their debt. Besides, austerity has proven countless times not to work, so why would Germany keep on insisting on it?

digitalengineer 11y ago
It's part of their (and our Dutch) culture. Protestant / Calvinist. 'We were born in to sin and must work hard to reach paradise'. This is why the Greek bashing in the papers has been so effective. They were 'lazy, bureaucrats, and what not. (Southern country's are more laid back. Catholic faith has forgiveness and starting over as main themes.
- mafribe 11y ago
  Greek bashing? The Greek airforce has [1] 156 F-16s, an airplane that's $165 million a piece new. Why on earth does Greece, a NATO country need 156 F-16s? Could they easily be sold for a couple of billions on the second hard market? Nah perish the tought! Greece needs to be the largest importer of conventional weapons in Europe and its military spending must be the highest in the European Union (relative to G.D.P) [2]. Greece must be “by far” the country with the largest share of military personnel to population in the EU. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Hellenic_Air_Force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Hellen... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Greece#Conscription.2C_budget.2C_international_operations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Greece#Conscriptio...
  - digitalengineer 11y ago
    The military hardware was part of the deal. Bought from Germany and France in large parts...
    - mafribe 11y ago
      What are you talking about? Neither the German or the French airforce operate or did operate F-16s [1] to the best of my knowledge. The article [2] makes it sound like the planes were directly acquired from General Dynamics, the manufacturer. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_operators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_operators#Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting...
      - digitalengineer 11y ago
        (1) "Athens' fondness for weaponry, and willingness of Germany and France to feed it, under fire as Greece struggles with debt crisis" (2) (1) http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military... (2) The Submarine Deals That Helped Sink Greecehttp://www.lepointinternational.com/it/politica/europa/550-the-submarine-deals-that-helped-sink-greece-.html http://www.lepointinternational.com/it/politica/europa/550-t...
        mafribe 11y ago
        Did you read the articles? Merkel's reaction was instant. "She immediately said: 'But we never asked you to spend so much of your GDP on defence, Quite. Don't by weapons if you don't need them and can't afford them. And nobody prevents Greece from selling a few of those sweet F-16s.
mhd 11y ago
Ah, the "proven facts" of economic theories on a global scale...
MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
Is that universally true? Ireland, Portugal and Spain were hit hard too by the financial crisis, but they are making a recovery.
- rtpg 11y ago
  Googling about this to confirm things made me find this pretty neat public data graph tool from google https://www.google.co.jp/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:es:el:it&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:es:el:it:fr:de:ie:pt&ifdim=country_group&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false https://www.google.co.jp/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa... Basically Spain and Greece are in a different category from the rest of the EU (at least w.r.t. unemployment). Spain is recovering like Greece is, though Greece is suffering more from the precarity of their initial situation. But Spain is still at 22% unemployment Spain is also seeing negative GDP growth since the start of the recession, and isn't expected to hit positive GDP growth until 2018 at the earliest.
  - MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
    Interesting, even when including Latvia/Lithuania/Estonia, Greece and Spain are still outliers. This will be interesting.

elorant 11y ago

Is there? http://www.truth-out.org/speakout/item/24456-the-math-of-mass-starvation-and-murder-germany-in-greece-during-world-war-ii http://www.truth-out.org/speakout/item/24456-the-math-of-mas... I would urge everyone here to spend a little time and read the above article. I'm pretty sure you'll learn things you couldn't even imagine.

fineman 11y ago

Yeah, the Germans deserved their debt. TL;DR - they killed a few people. The Greeks are like people who bought more home than they could afford because a bank offered them a predatory loan. But unlike the USA, Greece can't print money to make it go away. So they're morally deficient.