4 ms·

While it's an interesting read, it doesn't really provide enough information to show that this is a good thing. What is the average lifespan of people with thi

While it's an interesting read, it doesn't really provide enough information to show that this is a good thing. What is the average lifespan of people with this mutation? Even if Abby lives a normal lifespan we still have too little data we need some randomized samples. I come from a family of short sleepers. I always go to bed later than my wife and wake up earlier with more energy, this is still the case now that I'm in my 30s, but I have severe health problems compared to the average person my age. Is this related to not getting enough sleep or just another example of confounding. It would be good to see some real statistical evidence to show that her mutation is even positive.

e40 11y ago
Even if those with the mutation lived shorter lives, they might live longer "useful" lives (because they are awake more hours, in total, than someone without the mutation than lives years longer).
MichaelCrawford 11y ago
I need more sleep than anyone I have ever heard of other than sick people - that is I sleep a lot when otherwise healthy - however I sleep very irregularly, commonly staying awake for days at a time then sleeping for several days. I have always been this way it was a problem in grade school, and is why I am self employed. In 2010 I determined that I can stay awake for four days before I start to experience subtle visual hallucinations; stay awake any longer and they became quite severe. I think this may have damaged my brain somehow. At one time when I stayed awake so long I could work productively, no I cannot, however I still have that same sleep cycle.
- manigandham 11y ago
  Four(!) days? Seems like a neurological problem, have you had a medical exam or sleep study about this?
  - MichaelCrawford 11y ago
    A whole bunch of them. I am seeing a psychiatrist tomorrow; I am hoping he will refer me to a neurologist who will order an MRI. I suspect I have a brain tumour however I have had several CT scans that turn up negative. They don't want to give me any more CT scans because of the X-ray dosage but MRIs don't have that problem. I had surgery for obstructive sleep apnea in 2008; it worked really well. I was lucky, it has a high failure rate. Since then I can comfortably breathe through my nose, before that - for my entire life - I could not. Turbinate cautery feels just like having a hot soldering iron shoved way up your nose. I am also mentally ill. Some people think my mental illness is the result of sleep deprivation however there are numerous other contributing factors. When I was diagnosed with Bipolar-Type Schizoaffective Disorder in 1985 the doctors were concerned my symptoms were the result of a brain tumour so they gave me an EEG, CAT scan and neurological tests. I wanted to be a chemist at first, I was heavily into it. My parents encouraged it as Dad was once a chemist and my mother's father was a surgeon. Unfortunately Mom gave me a bottle of mercury. It is powerfully toxic but only when metabolized in certain ways; the actual liquid is mostly harmless. But I spilled it on the carpet. I recovered most of it with an eyedropper however I spilled it several times - it's quite cool to hold it in the palm of your hand - so quite a lot of it got in the carpet. Childhood mercury vapor inhalation poisoning might not kill you but it will screw you up in spectacular ways. Among other things my hairline is visibly receding in photographs starting from when I was fourteen years old. I was completely bald at 21.
gwern 11y ago
I don't believe any harm has been identified yet, so any harm must be much more subtle than most genetic disorders one might be thinking of. But if you're looking for an evolutionary rationale, the extra energy expenditure of 4+ hours additional wakefulness (either on its own or due to extra synaptic energy consumption if you accept Tononi's SHY theory of sleep) is a sufficient reproductive-fitness penalty in a pre-modern context to explain why it's rare. > we need some randomized samples. These pretty much are randomized samples. You can look at the siblings and relatives and now you've got Mendelian randomization, I think. Further reading: "A Gene That Makes You Need Less Sleep?" http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/a-gene-makes-you-need-less-sleep http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/a-gene-make... ; HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8215872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8215872 "Heritability of Performance Deficit Accumulation During Acute Sleep Deprivation in Twins" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3413799/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3413799/ Kuna et al 2012 "The Transcriptional Repressor DEC2 Regulates Sleep Length in Mammals" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884988/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884988/ He et al 2010 "A Novel BHLHE41 Variant is Associated with Short Sleep and Resistance to Sleep Deprivation in Humans" https://pdf.yt/d/i-sxyELBIBsir7uy https://pdf.yt/d/i-sxyELBIBsir7uy Pellegrino et al 2014
- applecore 11y ago
  N.B. The principle of TANSTAAFL in an evolutionary “pre-modern context” seems to pair well with the more recent theory of WGYHWGYT as a framework/mental model for modern dilemmas. TANSTAAFL: “There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.” WGYHWGYT: “What got you here won't get you there.”
nqzero 11y ago
the article claimed that the short sleepers (the ones with the genetic mod) didn't have any health disadvantages, though it didn't give many statistics

e40 11y ago

Even if those with the mutation lived shorter lives, they might live longer "useful" lives (because they are awake more hours, in total, than someone without the mutation than lives years longer).

MichaelCrawford 11y ago

I need more sleep than anyone I have ever heard of other than sick people - that is I sleep a lot when otherwise healthy - however I sleep very irregularly, commonly staying awake for days at a time then sleeping for several days. I have always been this way it was a problem in grade school, and is why I am self employed. In 2010 I determined that I can stay awake for four days before I start to experience subtle visual hallucinations; stay awake any longer and they became quite severe. I think this may have damaged my brain somehow. At one time when I stayed awake so long I could work productively, no I cannot, however I still have that same sleep cycle.

manigandham 11y ago
Four(!) days? Seems like a neurological problem, have you had a medical exam or sleep study about this?
- MichaelCrawford 11y ago
  A whole bunch of them. I am seeing a psychiatrist tomorrow; I am hoping he will refer me to a neurologist who will order an MRI. I suspect I have a brain tumour however I have had several CT scans that turn up negative. They don't want to give me any more CT scans because of the X-ray dosage but MRIs don't have that problem. I had surgery for obstructive sleep apnea in 2008; it worked really well. I was lucky, it has a high failure rate. Since then I can comfortably breathe through my nose, before that - for my entire life - I could not. Turbinate cautery feels just like having a hot soldering iron shoved way up your nose. I am also mentally ill. Some people think my mental illness is the result of sleep deprivation however there are numerous other contributing factors. When I was diagnosed with Bipolar-Type Schizoaffective Disorder in 1985 the doctors were concerned my symptoms were the result of a brain tumour so they gave me an EEG, CAT scan and neurological tests. I wanted to be a chemist at first, I was heavily into it. My parents encouraged it as Dad was once a chemist and my mother's father was a surgeon. Unfortunately Mom gave me a bottle of mercury. It is powerfully toxic but only when metabolized in certain ways; the actual liquid is mostly harmless. But I spilled it on the carpet. I recovered most of it with an eyedropper however I spilled it several times - it's quite cool to hold it in the palm of your hand - so quite a lot of it got in the carpet. Childhood mercury vapor inhalation poisoning might not kill you but it will screw you up in spectacular ways. Among other things my hairline is visibly receding in photographs starting from when I was fourteen years old. I was completely bald at 21.

gwern 11y ago

I don't believe any harm has been identified yet, so any harm must be much more subtle than most genetic disorders one might be thinking of. But if you're looking for an evolutionary rationale, the extra energy expenditure of 4+ hours additional wakefulness (either on its own or due to extra synaptic energy consumption if you accept Tononi's SHY theory of sleep) is a sufficient reproductive-fitness penalty in a pre-modern context to explain why it's rare. > we need some randomized samples. These pretty much are randomized samples. You can look at the siblings and relatives and now you've got Mendelian randomization, I think. Further reading: "A Gene That Makes You Need Less Sleep?" http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/a-gene-makes-you-need-less-sleep http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/a-gene-make... ; HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8215872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8215872 "Heritability of Performance Deficit Accumulation During Acute Sleep Deprivation in Twins" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3413799/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3413799/ Kuna et al 2012 "The Transcriptional Repressor DEC2 Regulates Sleep Length in Mammals" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884988/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884988/ He et al 2010 "A Novel BHLHE41 Variant is Associated with Short Sleep and Resistance to Sleep Deprivation in Humans" https://pdf.yt/d/i-sxyELBIBsir7uy https://pdf.yt/d/i-sxyELBIBsir7uy Pellegrino et al 2014

applecore 11y ago
N.B. The principle of TANSTAAFL in an evolutionary “pre-modern context” seems to pair well with the more recent theory of WGYHWGYT as a framework/mental model for modern dilemmas. TANSTAAFL: “There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.” WGYHWGYT: “What got you here won't get you there.”

nqzero 11y ago

the article claimed that the short sleepers (the ones with the genetic mod) didn't have any health disadvantages, though it didn't give many statistics