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> gender is a cultural construct Trans people such as myself are proof that gender is not a social construct. In my experience, the nastiest transphobes are t

by amyjess 11y ago

> gender is a cultural construct Trans people such as myself are proof that gender is not a social construct. In my experience, the nastiest transphobes are the ones who believe gender is a social construct. They're called TERFs. They can't wrap their minds around the fact that we prove their pet theories wrong, so they stalk, harass, and doxx us.

songshu 11y ago
Stalking, harassing and doxxing is indefensible, but not being able to wrap one's head around gender is understandable I think. Often people want, whether trans or not, to express their gender in terms of constructs like name, language, manner of dress etc which are clearly social (sometimes clearly invented in the last 100 years). We have no easy way of deciding how these seemingly superficial things relate to underlying gender.
- kelukelugames 11y ago
  This is absolutely true. A few years ago the majority of Americans couldn't even wrap their heads around marriage equality.
  - kefka 11y ago
    Most still can't. It was because 5 people "made it so".
    - ScottBurson 11y ago
      You need to check the latest poll results: http://www.gallup.com/poll/117328/marriage.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/117328/marriage.aspx
- pluma 11y ago
  Trying to explain to a girl who's never seen a kilt why you're "dressed like a girl" is a great exercise for anyone who thinks gender isn't at all a social construct. Like many things, gender is a mix of both. It's an immutable core wrapped in various social and cultural markers we've come to associate with "masculine" and "feminine". And of course the range of possible cores is more of a continuum than a simple binary flag (even though we like sorting all the arbitrary markers into two neat piles as if that really means anything). Considering we still largely refused to acknowledge something as intuitively obvious[0] as non-right-handedness less than two generations ago, I wonder how long it will take until we've learned to deal with the fact that gender (and sexuality) is as idiosyncratic as nearly everything else about an individual's identity. [0]: Seriously. People generally have two hands. Why on Earth should we assume that there's something special about the one that is dominant for most people? Good luck explaining gender and sexuality to a society that can't even imagine not everybody is strictly right-handed.
tiler 11y ago
Perhaps you could explain how the existence of trans. people is proof that gender is not a social construct?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- paperrr1 11y ago
  remember they're "born that way".
- amyjess 11y ago
  Because physical dysphoria is a thing. Whenever I've heard a suggestion that I should just live as a feminine guy, it just makes me feel sick. Even in a world where no gender stereotypes existed, I wouldn't want to be male. I'd rather not live the rest of my life with a masculine face, body hair, a flat chest, male fat distribution, etc. My transition has nothing to do with social roles and everything to do with my body. Before I transitioned, I actually had problems recognizing myself in the mirror. It wasn't until I'd been on hormones for half a year that I could actually remember my face. Also, my own hobbies and interests are more androgynous than anything else, but I probably lean towards being more gender non-conforming as a girl than as a guy.
  - Joky 11y ago
    It is unclear to me as why it contradicts the social construct part of the gender. Maybe some people negates the physical difference between women and men, but I doubt that it is the majority of people that believe that the social part of the gender is socially constructed. I don't understand that the fact that you couldn't stand being in a man body (I'm sorry for that BTW and glad you "escaped") does not invalidate the belief that the gender side associated with pink and blue, or which kind of job is socially constructed.
  - likeclockwork 11y ago
    That all sounds like sex stuff, not gender stuff.
- 11y ago
slfnflctd 11y ago
> TERFs Despite knowing a couple trans people, I'd never seen this term that I recall. Some very interesting reading out there; hard to wrap one's mind around... but worth the effort. I also got to read about intersectionality for the first time. There are aspects of this I've acknowledged for a long time, just didn't know a word existed for it. SJWs in general are getting a bad rap from many corners now, and I think some of that is what I'd call a 'natural correction'. When a critical mass of people gets involved with anything, a few inevitably fail to understand alternate perspectives enough to consider how those views might harmonize with their own (due to rabbit holes of dogmatism, subconscious bias, inexperience, stubbornness or whatever else). To me, it so very often seems to come back to one simple thing-- have you tried putting yourself in your neighbor's shoes lately?
hellbanner 11y ago
So can you explain what gender is, then? I've always viewed gender & sex as being an issue of parts or lack of parts a human is born with, and gender is their sexual personality or preferences. Do you believe there are specific (limited in quantity) genders?
- amyjess 11y ago
  Gender is the sex of the brain.
  - thret 11y ago
    I always assumed it was defined by procreation - when we assign gender to individuals of a species - the females lay eggs/give birth, and the males fertilize them.
    - hellbanner 11y ago
      This breaks down in hermaphrodite creatures and creatures who change sex.
      - thret 11y ago
        Hermaphrodites are both, creatures who change sex start as one gender and become another. I don't see a problem.
  - hellbanner 11y ago
    Why are these labels important to those who use them -- why bother with a "gender" noun and instead use a description of what your sexuality functions as?
tree_of_item 11y ago
I'm not sure who's doing the harassing: http://terfisaslur.com http://terfisaslur.com
- amyjess 11y ago
  That site is lies and propaganda run by a hate group. "TERF" is no more of a slur than "Neo-Nazi" or "rapist", and all those groups are the scum of the earth. There is no moral difference between a TERF and a member of Stormfront or a known rapist.
  - tree_of_item 11y ago
    That's a pretty ridiculous claim. I'm clearly not going to convince you of anything, but for anyone following this thread you can read http://www.troubleandstrife.org/new-articles/you-are-killing-me/ http://www.troubleandstrife.org/new-articles/you-are-killing... for what I found was a level-headed explanation of the divide between trans activists and the so called "TERF"s.
dgabriel 11y ago
Some aspects of gender expression are social constructs, but certainly hard-coded gender identity is real. This is a spectrum, and there are many people who don't identify as either gender, but somewhere between. You don't have to be a TERF to say that something as vague as "science ability" can't possibly be measurably linked to sex or gender. (one of my children is transmasculine, but he also likes to paint his nails and wear glitter. we refuse to assign him any sort of gender expression box, and still respect that he is a boy).
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
kefka 11y ago
Not particularly surprising. Feminists in a general sense are usually pretty bad people. They espouse their gender over masculine and other genders. It is akin to saying that the Black Panthers are good, when the KKK is bad. They're both bad. Feminism == Masculinism == sex discrimination
- yedava 11y ago
  What an ignorant comment. Feminism is directly responsible for women getting their rights, like abortion. Saying it is "just as bad as..." is a clueless claim. What wrongs has Masculinism ever corrected?
  - diamondback 11y ago
    'Masculinism' has corrected almost all wrongs since time immemorial. It has caused many of the too.
likeclockwork 11y ago
> Trans people such as myself are proof that gender is not a social construct. I don't think the existence of trans people proves anything, in either direction, about whether or not gender is a social construct. We live in a gendered society. Pointing out that some social roles are completely arbitrary doesn't actually change anything. Gender is in the home, on television, on the radio, in books, on the internet, in schools, and in the streets. It's being taught and reinforced everywhere. I don't think anyone could possibly credibly claim to have independently derived gender from their own innate personal characteristics that they were born with and thus have proved that gender is a biological reality. To assert gender is real because you feel some kind of way after being brainwashed your entire life is... well, I guess that's actually very common but I don't think it furthers any kind of understanding or suggests anything about the way things should be. I support everyone's right to live their lives the way they need to... but gender is entirely about arbitrarily restricting and labeling people's behavior and I can't endorse it--I'd rather live in a world without labels where everyone is allowed the full range of human expression.

by amyjess 11y ago

songshu 11y ago

Stalking, harassing and doxxing is indefensible, but not being able to wrap one's head around gender is understandable I think. Often people want, whether trans or not, to express their gender in terms of constructs like name, language, manner of dress etc which are clearly social (sometimes clearly invented in the last 100 years). We have no easy way of deciding how these seemingly superficial things relate to underlying gender.

kelukelugames 11y ago
This is absolutely true. A few years ago the majority of Americans couldn't even wrap their heads around marriage equality.
- kefka 11y ago
  Most still can't. It was because 5 people "made it so".
  - ScottBurson 11y ago
    You need to check the latest poll results: http://www.gallup.com/poll/117328/marriage.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/117328/marriage.aspx
pluma 11y ago
Trying to explain to a girl who's never seen a kilt why you're "dressed like a girl" is a great exercise for anyone who thinks gender isn't at all a social construct. Like many things, gender is a mix of both. It's an immutable core wrapped in various social and cultural markers we've come to associate with "masculine" and "feminine". And of course the range of possible cores is more of a continuum than a simple binary flag (even though we like sorting all the arbitrary markers into two neat piles as if that really means anything). Considering we still largely refused to acknowledge something as intuitively obvious[0] as non-right-handedness less than two generations ago, I wonder how long it will take until we've learned to deal with the fact that gender (and sexuality) is as idiosyncratic as nearly everything else about an individual's identity. [0]: Seriously. People generally have two hands. Why on Earth should we assume that there's something special about the one that is dominant for most people? Good luck explaining gender and sexuality to a society that can't even imagine not everybody is strictly right-handed.

tiler 11y ago

Perhaps you could explain how the existence of trans. people is proof that gender is not a social construct?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
paperrr1 11y ago
remember they're "born that way".
amyjess 11y ago
Because physical dysphoria is a thing. Whenever I've heard a suggestion that I should just live as a feminine guy, it just makes me feel sick. Even in a world where no gender stereotypes existed, I wouldn't want to be male. I'd rather not live the rest of my life with a masculine face, body hair, a flat chest, male fat distribution, etc. My transition has nothing to do with social roles and everything to do with my body. Before I transitioned, I actually had problems recognizing myself in the mirror. It wasn't until I'd been on hormones for half a year that I could actually remember my face. Also, my own hobbies and interests are more androgynous than anything else, but I probably lean towards being more gender non-conforming as a girl than as a guy.
- Joky 11y ago
  It is unclear to me as why it contradicts the social construct part of the gender. Maybe some people negates the physical difference between women and men, but I doubt that it is the majority of people that believe that the social part of the gender is socially constructed. I don't understand that the fact that you couldn't stand being in a man body (I'm sorry for that BTW and glad you "escaped") does not invalidate the belief that the gender side associated with pink and blue, or which kind of job is socially constructed.
- likeclockwork 11y ago
  That all sounds like sex stuff, not gender stuff.
11y ago

slfnflctd 11y ago

> TERFs Despite knowing a couple trans people, I'd never seen this term that I recall. Some very interesting reading out there; hard to wrap one's mind around... but worth the effort. I also got to read about intersectionality for the first time. There are aspects of this I've acknowledged for a long time, just didn't know a word existed for it. SJWs in general are getting a bad rap from many corners now, and I think some of that is what I'd call a 'natural correction'. When a critical mass of people gets involved with anything, a few inevitably fail to understand alternate perspectives enough to consider how those views might harmonize with their own (due to rabbit holes of dogmatism, subconscious bias, inexperience, stubbornness or whatever else). To me, it so very often seems to come back to one simple thing-- have you tried putting yourself in your neighbor's shoes lately?

hellbanner 11y ago

So can you explain what gender is, then? I've always viewed gender & sex as being an issue of parts or lack of parts a human is born with, and gender is their sexual personality or preferences. Do you believe there are specific (limited in quantity) genders?

amyjess 11y ago
Gender is the sex of the brain.
- thret 11y ago
  I always assumed it was defined by procreation - when we assign gender to individuals of a species - the females lay eggs/give birth, and the males fertilize them.
  - hellbanner 11y ago
    This breaks down in hermaphrodite creatures and creatures who change sex.
    - thret 11y ago
      Hermaphrodites are both, creatures who change sex start as one gender and become another. I don't see a problem.
- hellbanner 11y ago
  Why are these labels important to those who use them -- why bother with a "gender" noun and instead use a description of what your sexuality functions as?

tree_of_item 11y ago

I'm not sure who's doing the harassing: http://terfisaslur.com http://terfisaslur.com

amyjess 11y ago
That site is lies and propaganda run by a hate group. "TERF" is no more of a slur than "Neo-Nazi" or "rapist", and all those groups are the scum of the earth. There is no moral difference between a TERF and a member of Stormfront or a known rapist.
- tree_of_item 11y ago
  That's a pretty ridiculous claim. I'm clearly not going to convince you of anything, but for anyone following this thread you can read http://www.troubleandstrife.org/new-articles/you-are-killing-me/ http://www.troubleandstrife.org/new-articles/you-are-killing... for what I found was a level-headed explanation of the divide between trans activists and the so called "TERF"s.

dgabriel 11y ago

Some aspects of gender expression are social constructs, but certainly hard-coded gender identity is real. This is a spectrum, and there are many people who don't identify as either gender, but somewhere between. You don't have to be a TERF to say that something as vague as "science ability" can't possibly be measurably linked to sex or gender. (one of my children is transmasculine, but he also likes to paint his nails and wear glitter. we refuse to assign him any sort of gender expression box, and still respect that he is a boy).

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

kefka 11y ago

Not particularly surprising. Feminists in a general sense are usually pretty bad people. They espouse their gender over masculine and other genders. It is akin to saying that the Black Panthers are good, when the KKK is bad. They're both bad. Feminism == Masculinism == sex discrimination

yedava 11y ago
What an ignorant comment. Feminism is directly responsible for women getting their rights, like abortion. Saying it is "just as bad as..." is a clueless claim. What wrongs has Masculinism ever corrected?
- diamondback 11y ago
  'Masculinism' has corrected almost all wrongs since time immemorial. It has caused many of the too.

likeclockwork 11y ago

> Trans people such as myself are proof that gender is not a social construct. I don't think the existence of trans people proves anything, in either direction, about whether or not gender is a social construct. We live in a gendered society. Pointing out that some social roles are completely arbitrary doesn't actually change anything. Gender is in the home, on television, on the radio, in books, on the internet, in schools, and in the streets. It's being taught and reinforced everywhere. I don't think anyone could possibly credibly claim to have independently derived gender from their own innate personal characteristics that they were born with and thus have proved that gender is a biological reality. To assert gender is real because you feel some kind of way after being brainwashed your entire life is... well, I guess that's actually very common but I don't think it furthers any kind of understanding or suggests anything about the way things should be. I support everyone's right to live their lives the way they need to... but gender is entirely about arbitrarily restricting and labeling people's behavior and I can't endorse it--I'd rather live in a world without labels where everyone is allowed the full range of human expression.