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I find these sort of arguments very naive. They limit the definition of ^work^ and then discard it as being unnecessary. Let me give you an example of work that

I find these sort of arguments very naive. They limit the definition of ^work^ and then discard it as being unnecessary. Let me give you an example of work that would still exist in the narrowly utopian no-need-to-work world -- No, I don't mean the type that might eventually be taken over by machines, like picking up the garbage, cleaning your apartments, farming and making sure all the machines that pick up the garbage, clean your apartments and farm are still working. No, let's assume we get there as well and everybody is free to choose whatever the hell they want to do with all their free time -- that kind of world. Assume that you wake up in that kind of a world and decide that today you will climb Mt. Everest, because well, you know, you can ! So you train virtually, buy all the needed supplies and get them delivered to your house with no human intervention automatically, book your flights, get on a plane that flies itself and land at the base camp. Now what ? well you have to find a sherpa and hire him ...why ? because you just can't do something for the first time all by yourself even if you have all the tech in the world. Work (although not as we normally define it) is simply another way to say 'having experience with a certain skill for a sufficiently long amount of time and doing it at a sufficiently reasonable level of proficiency that it is of value others that do not have the experience'. The sherpa example is just for making a point but even if we limit the discussion of machines doing all 'work' -- who will build the machines that build the machines ? who will look after the machines that look after the machines ? who will teach those who build and look after the machines ? ...and why would any of these people to do any of these things that obviously don't come naturally but require time, patience and perhaps some skill to master ?

sdenton4 11y ago
Achieving mastery is it's own goal and own reward, distinct from fulfilling basic needs. And if you need people to go on your big adventure with you, then you should be able to round up some other fool-hearty adventurers for the trip. These two principles greatly help with keeping the open source world spinning, and are quite distinct from what we consider 'work,' normally. Interesting, long-term difficult projects can happen without the threat of failing to meet basic needs; we can still make beautiful, functional things and perhaps even be better people without engaging in coerced or mandatory labor.
- devnonymous 11y ago
  I didn't mean to contrast coerced or mandatory labor against working for the love of it. Far from it. I wanted to highlight the fact that certain things that we do require a certain level of skill acquired over time via practice and persistence. These have value (for others) and will be traded (in return for value) and that's what comes to be known as work. Replace sherpa with doctor if you may and Mt. Everest with heart surgery. Yeah, I could possibly find some talented medical practitioners who study the human body for the love of it (that's how the field of medicine was born to begin with). However, if I needed a heart surgery, what would be (a) my motive to go with one specific individual among them and (b) their motive to operate on me ? Yeah, open source exists. So does indie music, underground/unpublished books/comics, art, etc etc but the argument I was making is that the product of all of these (ie: knowledge of medicine, software, music, art..etc etc) also holds 'value' to those who are not skilled at these and this value will be traded and that does become work -- 'the doing what you love doing and getting paid for it' type of work. At the end of the day, I will differentiate between 2 cooks who indulge in cooking for the love of it and offer some sort of 'trade-in' so that the better one prepares food for me, in return for something that I love doing (although maybe, possibly, not as well as a peer). You see what I am getting at ? Work is a consequence of acquiring something (a.k.a skill) not the reason behind acquisition of something (money/relaxation/lifestyle...blah blah).
  - cafeoh 11y ago
    Barring the fact that heart surgeries and cooking can be automated (because it's speculative and doesn't add much to the discussion), I see what you mean. I don't think 1 to 1 value exchange necessarily has it's place though. Does it matter that it's the person you helped that helps you? Does it even matter that get as much value as the amount you're giving out? I believe that offering value has value in itself if you know what I mean. I'm sure a friend of yours (or yourself) has once spent hours carefully making you understand something they knew well to the maximum of their ability, and loved it. People like to share, especially knowledge. Anyway, wouldn't a medical surgeon actually like to perform surgery? If anything else wouldn't he go looking for people? Everyone likes to hone their skills, and it seems more likely that heart surgeons go looking for patients to help and gladly accept to perform surgery on them (you let me work on you, and I'll fix you up) rather than go shoot a couple animals in the wood to patch them up afterward. I think there will be a completely new notion to service and favors anyway, without scarcity and ego.
ignorabilis 11y ago
Experience is just data. So one day when you go to Everest hiring a sherpa might not be needed. Why? Because a simulator can be created, based on his knowledge and all the other knowledge about Everest. Regarding your other questions: Humans will build the machines that build the machines. In fact they do it now. Then we will build machines that can build machines based only on a design. That's the future. The thing with the machines is a little bit different, but essentially it is much better to work from an office 2-4 hours a day, controlling a mining machine compared to actually mining. Once a person can read there is almost no need for anyone else to teach him anything. I never listened in class, didn't have a notebook and got A's when I wanted to. I was reading the books that we were supposed to, but I prefered to explore them my way and I usually read them before it was needed. I know other people like me. I also know that people are curious in general and like to explore if given the opportunity. And here comes my last answer - these people will do that because they want to see the result. Because they will enjoy doing it. And when they no longer find it interesting they will move on to something else. Because not doing anything is depressing. Doing it against your will - even more.
cafeoh 11y ago
You really believe that in a world where you don't have to struggle for your basic needs there won't be enough guides? Think about it for a while, it might blow you away (and I'm not saying that ironically, it sure as hell had an impact on me), what if you had to go to a Sherpa settlement, talk with them, and try to find a friend that is willing to help you? Sharing knowledge is something beautiful, most people like to talk about what they know.

sdenton4 11y ago

Achieving mastery is it's own goal and own reward, distinct from fulfilling basic needs. And if you need people to go on your big adventure with you, then you should be able to round up some other fool-hearty adventurers for the trip. These two principles greatly help with keeping the open source world spinning, and are quite distinct from what we consider 'work,' normally. Interesting, long-term difficult projects can happen without the threat of failing to meet basic needs; we can still make beautiful, functional things and perhaps even be better people without engaging in coerced or mandatory labor.

devnonymous 11y ago
I didn't mean to contrast coerced or mandatory labor against working for the love of it. Far from it. I wanted to highlight the fact that certain things that we do require a certain level of skill acquired over time via practice and persistence. These have value (for others) and will be traded (in return for value) and that's what comes to be known as work. Replace sherpa with doctor if you may and Mt. Everest with heart surgery. Yeah, I could possibly find some talented medical practitioners who study the human body for the love of it (that's how the field of medicine was born to begin with). However, if I needed a heart surgery, what would be (a) my motive to go with one specific individual among them and (b) their motive to operate on me ? Yeah, open source exists. So does indie music, underground/unpublished books/comics, art, etc etc but the argument I was making is that the product of all of these (ie: knowledge of medicine, software, music, art..etc etc) also holds 'value' to those who are not skilled at these and this value will be traded and that does become work -- 'the doing what you love doing and getting paid for it' type of work. At the end of the day, I will differentiate between 2 cooks who indulge in cooking for the love of it and offer some sort of 'trade-in' so that the better one prepares food for me, in return for something that I love doing (although maybe, possibly, not as well as a peer). You see what I am getting at ? Work is a consequence of acquiring something (a.k.a skill) not the reason behind acquisition of something (money/relaxation/lifestyle...blah blah).
- cafeoh 11y ago
  Barring the fact that heart surgeries and cooking can be automated (because it's speculative and doesn't add much to the discussion), I see what you mean. I don't think 1 to 1 value exchange necessarily has it's place though. Does it matter that it's the person you helped that helps you? Does it even matter that get as much value as the amount you're giving out? I believe that offering value has value in itself if you know what I mean. I'm sure a friend of yours (or yourself) has once spent hours carefully making you understand something they knew well to the maximum of their ability, and loved it. People like to share, especially knowledge. Anyway, wouldn't a medical surgeon actually like to perform surgery? If anything else wouldn't he go looking for people? Everyone likes to hone their skills, and it seems more likely that heart surgeons go looking for patients to help and gladly accept to perform surgery on them (you let me work on you, and I'll fix you up) rather than go shoot a couple animals in the wood to patch them up afterward. I think there will be a completely new notion to service and favors anyway, without scarcity and ego.

ignorabilis 11y ago

Experience is just data. So one day when you go to Everest hiring a sherpa might not be needed. Why? Because a simulator can be created, based on his knowledge and all the other knowledge about Everest. Regarding your other questions: Humans will build the machines that build the machines. In fact they do it now. Then we will build machines that can build machines based only on a design. That's the future. The thing with the machines is a little bit different, but essentially it is much better to work from an office 2-4 hours a day, controlling a mining machine compared to actually mining. Once a person can read there is almost no need for anyone else to teach him anything. I never listened in class, didn't have a notebook and got A's when I wanted to. I was reading the books that we were supposed to, but I prefered to explore them my way and I usually read them before it was needed. I know other people like me. I also know that people are curious in general and like to explore if given the opportunity. And here comes my last answer - these people will do that because they want to see the result. Because they will enjoy doing it. And when they no longer find it interesting they will move on to something else. Because not doing anything is depressing. Doing it against your will - even more.

cafeoh 11y ago

You really believe that in a world where you don't have to struggle for your basic needs there won't be enough guides? Think about it for a while, it might blow you away (and I'm not saying that ironically, it sure as hell had an impact on me), what if you had to go to a Sherpa settlement, talk with them, and try to find a friend that is willing to help you? Sharing knowledge is something beautiful, most people like to talk about what they know.