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> Crop yields continue to increase This is like judging someone's wealth by their ability to rapidly use a credit card. Monoculture has destroyed our ecosystem

> Crop yields continue to increase This is like judging someone's wealth by their ability to rapidly use a credit card. Monoculture has destroyed our ecosystems, caused rampant desertification, caused soil runoff, stip mined the less fortunate countries, polluted our water, increased pests overpopulation, increased disease, etc. > If you really want to go back to the age of peasants and serfs, why don't you lead by example? Dualistic solution-centric thinking is an issue with our times. It's time to think systemically. How can we improve existing systems? Which paradigms are appropriate to our entire context? Can we move toward an ethics driven paradigm, instead of a solution centric paradigm? There are many solutions to a problem, but some have maladaptive implications in a broader context not considered by myopic vision. Can we start to view the world with a broader context; beyond money & a certain strain of technological progress? Can we move beyond reductionistic metrics & take the entire situation into account? Also, is it so bad to have more farmers? Many natural farmers don't seem to think so. Is the hustle & bustle of city life with it's stress & unemployment a good life? Will the Pharmaceutical industry cure our Nature Deficit Disorder? What's left when you worked hard all of your life & it's your time to die? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_deficit_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_deficit_disorder While I don't own land (it's quite expensive in the current economic system), I do support local farmers & participate in local economies to a certain extend. I'd love to increase my participation because it's the responsible thing to do.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
That's a stretch. Iowa grows more every year; our soil is in the best shape its ever been; erosion is at a low; water pollution is at a low. We can certainly make it work.
- briantakita 11y ago
  The best shape ever? Like before western civilization came when it was the grand prairie? Also, there are issues with runoff: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/us/conflict-over-soil-and-water-quality-puts-iowa-nice-to-a-test.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/us/conflict-over-soil-and-... There's also a concern about water management. Natural ecosystems tend to get the most out of their water usage. I seem to recall that the midwest water aquifers are a limited resource. That aside, I can buy that soil is improving. I also agree that we can make it work. I do applaud regenerative efforts in Iowa. However, I'm looking at a global scale, where desertification, pollution, runoff, lowering productivity, etc. are big problems. As an analogy, many climate change deniers will claim that it's still winter in their local area, but that perception is not fully representative of what is happening on a global scale. Re: the industrial paradigm on improving local soil systems; is importing nutrition on a massive scale, robbing that nutrition from other ecosystems, a responsible thing to do in a global context? I'm realistic in the sense that some importation may be necessary, in fact nature moves nutrients via animals, wind, etc. However, nature works in a cooperative & systemic way.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Our soil is about perfect for growing what we grow. Topsoil used to be the big thing, before ammonia fertilizer. Now the best crops grow on clay hillsides. Which we have plenty of, since Iowa used to be largely timber. Confused about the 'importing nutrients' thing - ammonia fertilizer is fixed from the air (since WWII); no more shipping bat guano around the country.
    - briantakita 11y ago
      I can't criticize your approach, since I'm not a farmer. I respect what you do & the work that it takes to run a farm. I can only point out what I've seen & what inspires me. re: Amonia > A typical modern ammonia-producing plant first converts natural gas (i.e., methane) or LPG (liquefied petroleum gases such as propane and butane) or petroleum naphtha into gaseous hydrogen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_production This requires the importation or local extraction of fossil fuels. Given that the United States is now utilizing fracking to extract natural gas, this causes pollution within the aquifers as well as reducing the integrity of the surface strata. A natural approach of fertilization is animal poop from grazing & polycultures (nitrogen fixing perennial plants, like Black Locust), similar to how the ancient prairies were fertilized. Mark Shepard, who's farm is in Wisconsin, has a large scale example of "Restoration Agriculture". He has a silvopasture that feeds his livestock. The livestock fertilize the fields. He also grows nuts. He also saves money by not having to buy fertilizer or pesticides. He also uses keyline design, swales, & ponds to efficiently use water & reduce runoff. http://www.newforestfarm.net/ http://www.newforestfarm.net/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb_t-sVVzF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb_t-sVVzF0 Here's a great talk by Gabe Brown from Idaho using natural, regenerative methods to rebuild soil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yPjoh9YJMk&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yPjoh9YJMk&feature=youtu.be My friends at http://www.fieldswithoutfences.org/ http://www.fieldswithoutfences.org/ in New Jersey have a lush polyculture medicinal herb & food farm that started from rocky spent earth. There was no top soil when they started a few years ago. You can see how it looks right now. http://www.fieldswithoutfences.org/permaculture/ http://www.fieldswithoutfences.org/permaculture/
Turing_Machine 11y ago
"Also, is it so bad to have more farmers?" Well, it's not so bad if you're the lord of the manor, maybe. Being the serf sucks, though. That's exactly what you're advocating, behind all your rhetoric. Get rid of the tractors and fertilizers and processing factories, and you're right back to unfree laborers working with hand tools. Quite possibly you've even fooled yourself... you admit that you don't actually know anything about farming, but still advocate some vague program based on feel-good emotions. You don't want to fuck with the food supply unless you really, really know what you're doing. History is full of utopian agricultural "reform" ideas. It's also full of millions of dead bodies produced by those "reforms".

JoeAltmaier 11y ago

That's a stretch. Iowa grows more every year; our soil is in the best shape its ever been; erosion is at a low; water pollution is at a low. We can certainly make it work.

briantakita 11y ago
The best shape ever? Like before western civilization came when it was the grand prairie? Also, there are issues with runoff: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/us/conflict-over-soil-and-water-quality-puts-iowa-nice-to-a-test.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/us/conflict-over-soil-and-... There's also a concern about water management. Natural ecosystems tend to get the most out of their water usage. I seem to recall that the midwest water aquifers are a limited resource. That aside, I can buy that soil is improving. I also agree that we can make it work. I do applaud regenerative efforts in Iowa. However, I'm looking at a global scale, where desertification, pollution, runoff, lowering productivity, etc. are big problems. As an analogy, many climate change deniers will claim that it's still winter in their local area, but that perception is not fully representative of what is happening on a global scale. Re: the industrial paradigm on improving local soil systems; is importing nutrition on a massive scale, robbing that nutrition from other ecosystems, a responsible thing to do in a global context? I'm realistic in the sense that some importation may be necessary, in fact nature moves nutrients via animals, wind, etc. However, nature works in a cooperative & systemic way.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Our soil is about perfect for growing what we grow. Topsoil used to be the big thing, before ammonia fertilizer. Now the best crops grow on clay hillsides. Which we have plenty of, since Iowa used to be largely timber. Confused about the 'importing nutrients' thing - ammonia fertilizer is fixed from the air (since WWII); no more shipping bat guano around the country.
  - briantakita 11y ago
    I can't criticize your approach, since I'm not a farmer. I respect what you do & the work that it takes to run a farm. I can only point out what I've seen & what inspires me. re: Amonia > A typical modern ammonia-producing plant first converts natural gas (i.e., methane) or LPG (liquefied petroleum gases such as propane and butane) or petroleum naphtha into gaseous hydrogen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_production This requires the importation or local extraction of fossil fuels. Given that the United States is now utilizing fracking to extract natural gas, this causes pollution within the aquifers as well as reducing the integrity of the surface strata. A natural approach of fertilization is animal poop from grazing & polycultures (nitrogen fixing perennial plants, like Black Locust), similar to how the ancient prairies were fertilized. Mark Shepard, who's farm is in Wisconsin, has a large scale example of "Restoration Agriculture". He has a silvopasture that feeds his livestock. The livestock fertilize the fields. He also grows nuts. He also saves money by not having to buy fertilizer or pesticides. He also uses keyline design, swales, & ponds to efficiently use water & reduce runoff. http://www.newforestfarm.net/ http://www.newforestfarm.net/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb_t-sVVzF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb_t-sVVzF0 Here's a great talk by Gabe Brown from Idaho using natural, regenerative methods to rebuild soil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yPjoh9YJMk&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yPjoh9YJMk&feature=youtu.be My friends at http://www.fieldswithoutfences.org/ http://www.fieldswithoutfences.org/ in New Jersey have a lush polyculture medicinal herb & food farm that started from rocky spent earth. There was no top soil when they started a few years ago. You can see how it looks right now. http://www.fieldswithoutfences.org/permaculture/ http://www.fieldswithoutfences.org/permaculture/

Turing_Machine 11y ago

"Also, is it so bad to have more farmers?" Well, it's not so bad if you're the lord of the manor, maybe. Being the serf sucks, though. That's exactly what you're advocating, behind all your rhetoric. Get rid of the tractors and fertilizers and processing factories, and you're right back to unfree laborers working with hand tools. Quite possibly you've even fooled yourself... you admit that you don't actually know anything about farming, but still advocate some vague program based on feel-good emotions. You don't want to fuck with the food supply unless you really, really know what you're doing. History is full of utopian agricultural "reform" ideas. It's also full of millions of dead bodies produced by those "reforms".