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I guess I just see a disconnect between beliefs a person actually holds, and fake beliefs a person says they hold because they are under impression those are th

I guess I just see a disconnect between beliefs a person actually holds, and fake beliefs a person says they hold because they are under impression those are the 'correct' beliefs to hold. I mean it comes down to a definition of the word belief which we seem to disagree on. There are probably only a handful of people in this world for which our differing definitions of belief would provide the same sets of beliefs.

thaumasiotes 11y ago
> I guess I just see a disconnect between beliefs a person actually holds, and beliefs a person says they hold because they are under impression those are the 'correct' beliefs to hold. How do you know which is which? I definitely haven't said "it's your belief if you claim it aloud, no matter what you really think about it". Consider the population of wives cheating on their husbands. Do you really believe that only an insignificant number of them think what they're doing is wrong? > There are probably only a handful of people in this world for which our differing definitions of belief would provide the same sets of beliefs. First, you need to establish that we differ in our definitions.
- genericuser 11y ago
  Let me ask you, how does a person make a decision? To me people use what they believe to be true to make that decision. To me all decisions demonstrate a persons actual beliefs, as why would they decide to do something if they did not honestly believe it would yield a desirable outcome. (that outcome does not have to be viewed as desirable to anyone but them, for instance suicide. Nor does it have to be the immediate outcome which is desirable, it could be part of a long con.) >Consider the population of wives cheating on their husbands. Do you really believe that only an insignificant number of them think what they're doing is wrong? Yes, I believe that all cheating spouses, people who commit crimes, and sociopaths have developed an internal belief structure which lets them justify actions that may come at a cost to themselves or others as being probable of a desirable outcome for them. >First, you need to establish that we differ in our definitions. Have I done so to your satisfaction? I thought it was common knowledge that people often echo views they do not actually adhere to so that they will appear to conform to societal norms, which represents the crux of my definition. Politicians frequently offer a very obvious example of such a tendency, but if you know anyone well enough you can see the inconsistencies in what they say and what they do. Their actions demonstrate how they actually make decisions and what they believe in my opinion, not what they say. You will know which are which by being introspective about the decisions you have made in the past and are considering making currently, and try to understand what basis you are truly using for that decision, besides the surface 'Well this feels right' reason.
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    I think it's worth quoting an extract from http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Course_Pages/legal_systems_very_different_12/Book_Draft/Systems/ChineseLaw.html http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Course_Pages/legal_sy... 's discussion of Qing Chinese law: > There are multiple cases where someone commits an offense on orders from a superior member of his extended family; the attitude of the court seems to be that although he must obey the order he is still criminally liable for the act; there appears to be no assumption in the legal system that an individual always has the option of acting in a way that does not violate one rule or another. When I read this, it was more interesting to me that American society is fairly committed to the fiction that such an option always exists. I don't believe that the mere fact that a person took some action itself demonstrates that the person believed that action to be morally blameless. Of two paths, both can be wrong. Of many paths, all can be wrong -- or the conseqences of staying on the "right" one might be personally unbearable. I imagine that a mother who opted not to rescue her child from a burning building might be haunted by the thought that this was wrong, regardless of a generally positive message from society. Also, I've tried really hard to read your comment in a way that allows for the existence of guilt. I can't see it. Do you believe people can feel guilt? Why would C. S. Lewis feel sorrow, in the privacy of his own mind, to discover that he is the kind of person who would do certain things?
    - genericuser 11y ago
      I can not perceive of right and wrong as absolute concepts. Only as concepts which exist when comparing one possible outcome relatively to others. People use some factors to inevitably choose between the choices they see available to them, they will choose what they perceive as having the outcome they desire given those decision trees that they construct. An outcome which they can not see a path to is not a choice, it effectively does not yet exist so they can not choose it. Guilt to me is what people feel when they realize they made decisions with incorrect or incomplete information, and would of made them differently had they known. Even when the person had no way of knowing the correct or complete information at the time of decision making, in this edge case society has developed a term to attempt to remove guilt from the person by calling it an 'accident'. Often I find the source of guilt to be not looking very far ahead on the decision trees which I eliminate early on as not effecting me. (Guilt can also be simply an act, as demonstrating guilt often leads to fewer negative consequences in our society. Think of all the people convicted where not demonstrating remorse was used as a factor in sentencing or parole denial.)

thaumasiotes 11y ago

> I guess I just see a disconnect between beliefs a person actually holds, and beliefs a person says they hold because they are under impression those are the 'correct' beliefs to hold. How do you know which is which? I definitely haven't said "it's your belief if you claim it aloud, no matter what you really think about it". Consider the population of wives cheating on their husbands. Do you really believe that only an insignificant number of them think what they're doing is wrong? > There are probably only a handful of people in this world for which our differing definitions of belief would provide the same sets of beliefs. First, you need to establish that we differ in our definitions.

genericuser 11y ago
Let me ask you, how does a person make a decision? To me people use what they believe to be true to make that decision. To me all decisions demonstrate a persons actual beliefs, as why would they decide to do something if they did not honestly believe it would yield a desirable outcome. (that outcome does not have to be viewed as desirable to anyone but them, for instance suicide. Nor does it have to be the immediate outcome which is desirable, it could be part of a long con.) >Consider the population of wives cheating on their husbands. Do you really believe that only an insignificant number of them think what they're doing is wrong? Yes, I believe that all cheating spouses, people who commit crimes, and sociopaths have developed an internal belief structure which lets them justify actions that may come at a cost to themselves or others as being probable of a desirable outcome for them. >First, you need to establish that we differ in our definitions. Have I done so to your satisfaction? I thought it was common knowledge that people often echo views they do not actually adhere to so that they will appear to conform to societal norms, which represents the crux of my definition. Politicians frequently offer a very obvious example of such a tendency, but if you know anyone well enough you can see the inconsistencies in what they say and what they do. Their actions demonstrate how they actually make decisions and what they believe in my opinion, not what they say. You will know which are which by being introspective about the decisions you have made in the past and are considering making currently, and try to understand what basis you are truly using for that decision, besides the surface 'Well this feels right' reason.
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  I think it's worth quoting an extract from http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Course_Pages/legal_systems_very_different_12/Book_Draft/Systems/ChineseLaw.html http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Course_Pages/legal_sy... 's discussion of Qing Chinese law: > There are multiple cases where someone commits an offense on orders from a superior member of his extended family; the attitude of the court seems to be that although he must obey the order he is still criminally liable for the act; there appears to be no assumption in the legal system that an individual always has the option of acting in a way that does not violate one rule or another. When I read this, it was more interesting to me that American society is fairly committed to the fiction that such an option always exists. I don't believe that the mere fact that a person took some action itself demonstrates that the person believed that action to be morally blameless. Of two paths, both can be wrong. Of many paths, all can be wrong -- or the conseqences of staying on the "right" one might be personally unbearable. I imagine that a mother who opted not to rescue her child from a burning building might be haunted by the thought that this was wrong, regardless of a generally positive message from society. Also, I've tried really hard to read your comment in a way that allows for the existence of guilt. I can't see it. Do you believe people can feel guilt? Why would C. S. Lewis feel sorrow, in the privacy of his own mind, to discover that he is the kind of person who would do certain things?
  - genericuser 11y ago
    I can not perceive of right and wrong as absolute concepts. Only as concepts which exist when comparing one possible outcome relatively to others. People use some factors to inevitably choose between the choices they see available to them, they will choose what they perceive as having the outcome they desire given those decision trees that they construct. An outcome which they can not see a path to is not a choice, it effectively does not yet exist so they can not choose it. Guilt to me is what people feel when they realize they made decisions with incorrect or incomplete information, and would of made them differently had they known. Even when the person had no way of knowing the correct or complete information at the time of decision making, in this edge case society has developed a term to attempt to remove guilt from the person by calling it an 'accident'. Often I find the source of guilt to be not looking very far ahead on the decision trees which I eliminate early on as not effecting me. (Guilt can also be simply an act, as demonstrating guilt often leads to fewer negative consequences in our society. Think of all the people convicted where not demonstrating remorse was used as a factor in sentencing or parole denial.)