4 ms·

You've just sold software to some of the most brutal governments in the world, who will use your technology to track down and brutally torture incredibly brave

by Ntrails 11y ago

You've just sold software to some of the most brutal governments in the world, who will use your technology to track down and brutally torture incredibly brave human rights activists. You make so many assumptions about the viewpoint of the other person and then state that you cannot understand how they behave like this. Of course you cannot, you've phrased the question in a way which doesn't necessarily even make sense from their point of view.

dempseye 11y ago
Care to illuminate their point of view for us?
dsmithatx 11y ago
I'm pretty sure they understand his point of view. Why else would they vehemently deny selling this software to such governments like Sudan then?
Fede_V 11y ago
It's very possible that I've made some unfair assumptions. Could you give me a more fair representation of what goes into the mind of someone selling surveillance software to Sudan or Omar?
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  I actually have software that'd be a decent fit for this use case. I'm working on bringing it to market for VoIP companies to use in troubleshooting networks. (Hint: It's super effective. At one place we cut ticket response times down by an enormous factor.) And one benefit I'm planning on adding is lawful intercept. A lot of VoIP companies are sitting at risk of getting a valid warrant and having no way to respond. Some companies sell technical insurance (pay monthly, they'll overnight an intercept box if you get a warrant) for this exact reason and it's not cheap. Only problem is CALEA has this dumbass weird format to provide the data in. But hey, that's worth like $100K a year per company or so... But it'd also be rather well suited for a government wanting to monitor connections. Just some scaling issues. My thought process is currently going "Well I could definitely use the money. And that'd put me in a better position to compete. Otherwise another competitor will do it. Or worse, an open source version will step up to the scale." I'm not sure it's much different than selling general services to the public. A lot of irrational people are going to buy your product and perhaps that might propel them to success. Taken to its conclusion, I'd have a super limited market as most people are idiots so given a choice, I'd only want to help a very limited range of people. I just have to put my personal feelings aside if I'm to deal with anyone in the real world.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Here's the problem: you think someone else will do it anyway thus damage is certain, so you can at least be the first to profit from it. And guess what, your competitors probably think the same thing. And you'll all rush to delivering morally dubious products. Because hey, if someone will defect anyway, it's best I defect fist. I am increasingly convinced that the very point of morality is to steer society away from stupid coordination failures like this.
    - MichaelGG 11y ago
      Fair point. I guess if I was convinced that my actions would actually matter, then I'd care. It's like voting for a third candidate in US elections - pointless. Anyways I'm far more interested in how to get to a point to sell to governments the first place. Hacking Team's marketing seems juvenile and lame from the naming to the way they phrase stuff. But at E200K per license, they were obviously successful.
      - shit_parade3 11y ago
        Yeah man, selling surveillance software totally doesn't amount to a thing, those dissidents would of met a gruesome end one way or another. You are evil.
PavlovsCat 11y ago
Of course, everybody has reasons, that's a given. Ranging from different perspectives (that is, knowing things others don't, or being ignorant to things others know), over rationalizations to pathology - nobody does anything ever without reason. Yet "I didn't know" or "I really like doing this" or "I can't feel empathy and/or reason well" are not always a good argument for doing something. It's a good reason to not hate a person, but not to just let them do whatever. Okay, if they're willing to issue a statement I'd be willing to hear them out :P But that's not the same as someone saying they might have a good reason.

by Ntrails 11y ago

dempseye 11y ago

Care to illuminate their point of view for us?

dsmithatx 11y ago

I'm pretty sure they understand his point of view. Why else would they vehemently deny selling this software to such governments like Sudan then?

Fede_V 11y ago

It's very possible that I've made some unfair assumptions. Could you give me a more fair representation of what goes into the mind of someone selling surveillance software to Sudan or Omar?

MichaelGG 11y ago
I actually have software that'd be a decent fit for this use case. I'm working on bringing it to market for VoIP companies to use in troubleshooting networks. (Hint: It's super effective. At one place we cut ticket response times down by an enormous factor.) And one benefit I'm planning on adding is lawful intercept. A lot of VoIP companies are sitting at risk of getting a valid warrant and having no way to respond. Some companies sell technical insurance (pay monthly, they'll overnight an intercept box if you get a warrant) for this exact reason and it's not cheap. Only problem is CALEA has this dumbass weird format to provide the data in. But hey, that's worth like $100K a year per company or so... But it'd also be rather well suited for a government wanting to monitor connections. Just some scaling issues. My thought process is currently going "Well I could definitely use the money. And that'd put me in a better position to compete. Otherwise another competitor will do it. Or worse, an open source version will step up to the scale." I'm not sure it's much different than selling general services to the public. A lot of irrational people are going to buy your product and perhaps that might propel them to success. Taken to its conclusion, I'd have a super limited market as most people are idiots so given a choice, I'd only want to help a very limited range of people. I just have to put my personal feelings aside if I'm to deal with anyone in the real world.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Here's the problem: you think someone else will do it anyway thus damage is certain, so you can at least be the first to profit from it. And guess what, your competitors probably think the same thing. And you'll all rush to delivering morally dubious products. Because hey, if someone will defect anyway, it's best I defect fist. I am increasingly convinced that the very point of morality is to steer society away from stupid coordination failures like this.
  - MichaelGG 11y ago
    Fair point. I guess if I was convinced that my actions would actually matter, then I'd care. It's like voting for a third candidate in US elections - pointless. Anyways I'm far more interested in how to get to a point to sell to governments the first place. Hacking Team's marketing seems juvenile and lame from the naming to the way they phrase stuff. But at E200K per license, they were obviously successful.
    - shit_parade3 11y ago
      Yeah man, selling surveillance software totally doesn't amount to a thing, those dissidents would of met a gruesome end one way or another. You are evil.

PavlovsCat 11y ago

Of course, everybody has reasons, that's a given. Ranging from different perspectives (that is, knowing things others don't, or being ignorant to things others know), over rationalizations to pathology - nobody does anything ever without reason. Yet "I didn't know" or "I really like doing this" or "I can't feel empathy and/or reason well" are not always a good argument for doing something. It's a good reason to not hate a person, but not to just let them do whatever. Okay, if they're willing to issue a statement I'd be willing to hear them out :P But that's not the same as someone saying they might have a good reason.