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It's sad that certain creditors didn't want to negotiate with Yanis anymore. To me, it seems he's a true hero of his nation, putting the needs of his people bef

by wsc981 11y ago

It's sad that certain creditors didn't want to negotiate with Yanis anymore. To me, it seems he's a true hero of his nation, putting the needs of his people before the needs of the creditors. I wish politicians in my country (The Netherlands) would be more like him. Our politicians on the other hand seem to do anything the EU tells them, possibly in hope for a cozy, well-payed EU job in the future. Yanis will wear the creditors' loathing with pride: http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/06/minister-no-more/ http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/06/minister-no-more/

bbv-if 11y ago
Indeed, a true hero who wrecked his country and resigned.
- gonvaled 11y ago
  You can see it like that. You can also see it like this: he gave voice to the people, and accepted to step aside when pressured by the powers-that-be, instead of stubbornly clinching to his post. He is no politician. We need more of those.
  - cxromos 11y ago
    you can't borrow, get 100 EU billions in haircuts few years ago, have monthly salaries in the administration and bureaucracy between 1.5-1.7 monthly, get 60 EU billions 5 years ago and not expect to default with 90 EU billions only in salaries in public sector. And those were only salaries expenses. Incompetent, malignant, and corrupt bureaucracy is Greek's heritage. No one will pay for that. When they borrow money in the eurozone they borrow money from middle class people who put that money into the bank. Then they call elections, and now are in recession, even though months before the elections they were on the upward line. They were already in the state that could service their own budget without borrowing and on top of that pay 3.4% interest to the creditors. The issue was that they didn't wanted to pay that 3.4%. All of this we see today is that 3.4%. And of course an insane idea that communism will rule the EU. Once more. He is an asshole, a person who calls the ordinary people who borrowed money to the Greeks for years terrorists and nazists. Good riddance.
    - wsc981 11y ago
      I can't fault the Greek government for lending what the creditors (banks from Germany and France) were willing to provide. I think the creditors made a huge mistake in their greed and thinking it was a sound investment since the credit would be backed by strong countries in the Eurozone anyway. And I also think ik was a huge mistake to include Greece in the Eurozone, since at the time the problems with the Greek economy were already well known. Now the Greeks have voted no, we finally have reached the moment we can right these wrongs. Greece should leave the Eurozone so they can achieve a better trade position. The Greek debts should be wroten off as losses to the creditors so the Greek economy can recover. And perhaps other weak countries in the Eurozone should follow suit, eventually. It's morally wrong to keep the Greek people in endless debts that they'll never be able to repay anyways.
  - cxromos 11y ago
    And you can't win elections by promising not to pay back your debts and accuse everyone else of trying to destroy the democracy. New government does not mean you can erase your debt. And the fact that you won the elections by telling fairytales does not mean that someone else will pay for the fairytale. That is borderline insanity. Democracy is responsibility of the successive government for the deeds of the previous one. May that be debt or a warcrime.
    - alextgordon 11y ago
      Sovereign debt absolutely can be defaulted on, just like any other kind of debt. The risk of default is priced into it. Greece is in a situation where there is no possible way that it can ever pay back its debts. Saying that does not make you "borderline insane". Quite the opposite.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        > Greece is in a situation where there is no possible way that it can ever pay back its debts. Other countries have managed to claw themselves out of bigger holes than this. It does take a much more hardline stance with respect to payment of taxes and reduction of the size of the state apparatus, what Greece has done is in many ways a simple strategy of postponement of action until the consequences were extremely bad for all of Greece, in particular the weaker parties. I don't blame the Greeks for their 'no' vote, but it would have been a lot better if they had had their 'French revolution' a decade earlier. Right now there is no good or easy way out of the mess any more and the Greek economy is about to collapse. This is not a situation where there are winners, only losers and the biggest losers are the people partying in the Greek squares today. It will take a while before that reality sets in though.
        vidarh 11y ago
        > Other countries have managed to claw themselves out of bigger holes than this. Do you have examples of any that have done so without extensive debt relief? I can't think of any. IMF's most optimistic numbers (which rests on wildly unrealistic assumptions) indicates it would take decades, and they've made it very clear that the debt isn't sustainable at all. When their past attempts at forecasting the Greek situation has consistently understated the problems, that ought to be pretty sobering. > Right now there is no good or easy way out of the mess any more Maybe not "good or easy", but substantially less damaging than what's been put on the table: Drastic debt cuts coupled with short term financing, coupled with reforms that aren't tied at reducing Greek government spending, or at least replaces any spending cuts with investment elsewhere (as the spending cuts have been a driver for the drastic contraction of GDP).
  - return0 11y ago
    Do the "click here for free ipad" ads give voice to the people too? Because that's what he did by giving false hopes. And then you congratulate him for not taking any responsibility for what will follow. Let me remind you that his 5 months as a minister were spent doing nothing , absolutely nothing ( yeah, he hired back 50 cleaning ladies for his ministry, that takes us into negative territory.)
- lectrick 11y ago
  Assumes the will of a single man would have been enough to rescue an entire economy based on what looks to outsiders like an ingrained culture of laziness
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  So what should he have done? What's your brilliant plan?
allendoerfer 11y ago
> To me, it seems he's a true hero of his nation, putting the needs of his people before the needs of the creditors. If you are responsible for the finances of a whole state you have to find agreement with the other 18 elected leaders that try to represent their people as well, preferably before you are unable to pay for your countries loans and it collapses. The Euro group was already moving in his direction but they have to justify their actions in front of their own people. I am all for some fresh wind but if you go into politics you have to be able to make compromises. You cannot just want something thinking that you are the only intelligent person in the room and step back if you do not get it, especially when the future of your country is at stake.
- vruiz 11y ago
  > you have to find agreement with the other 18 elected leaders that try to represent their people as well That right there might be the root of all EU problems.
  - coob 11y ago
    Eurozone problems, perhaps. I do not understand how you can attempt fiscal union without true political union.
    - vidarh 11y ago
      Almost everything in the EU can be explained by considering the interplay between a core of EU politicians that wants the EU to be a "United States of Europe", and those who want a looser association, and that the former group in general will grasp at whatever integration they can manage to get past parliaments and electorates at the moment, and hope it will hang together long enough to take the next step and/or that a crisis can be leverages to get support for the next step.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  >The Euro group was already moving in his direction That's a huge load of bullshit. They never showed any intention of budging from their position.
Bootvis 11y ago
He called the creditors 'terrorists' though. He didn't have to do that and I really can't blame the creditors for wanting someone else at the table.
- MaysonL 11y ago
  Actually, a more accurate translation would be "fear-mongers"
  - Bootvis 11y ago
    Oh, I didn't know that. Still not very flattering and not the first incident. In my opinion the problem is that Varoufakis is more skilled at game theory than at diplomacy.
    - vidarh 11y ago
      Have you perhaps considered that his background in game theory might make it reasonable to consider whether he's taken on a role on purpose? It strikes me as odd that people are so quick to pile on criticism of his behaviour without asking why, given his background. Perhaps it really is just personality flaws or too much enthusiasm. Or perhaps it's part of an intentional strategy (if so, whether or not it's been a good strategy we'll first find out when we see the end-result).
      - return0 11y ago
        Because people are not lab animals maybe?
      - digi_owl 11y ago
        I think i has in the past referred to himself as an anti-game theorist. As in, most of this work revolves around showing where game theory fails (often in spectacular ways).
  - return0 11y ago
    He said that to a spanish paper: http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2015/07/04/5596f1b3ca47412d048b459e.html http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2015/07/04/5596f1b3ca47412d04... "Lo que están haciendo con Grecia tiene un nombre: terrorismo." I dont speak spanish, and i guess the interview was in english, but reading the ensuing dialog its clear he said terrorism.
higherpurpose 11y ago
> Our politicians on the other hand seem to do anything the EU tells them What the US tells them too, probably: https://blog.cyberwar.nl/2015/07/dutch-intelligence-bill-proposes-non-specific-bulk-interception-powers-for-any-form-of-telecom-or-data-transfer-incl-domestic/ https://blog.cyberwar.nl/2015/07/dutch-intelligence-bill-pro...
vidarh 11y ago
Personally I think that he was expecting this. That he took the "bad cop" role on purpose, and that it's now time for the "good cop" to come in and appear more reasonable while pointing to the referendum with a "what can I do?" shrug while asking for more (e.g. after the IMF report, debt relief is now back on the table; EDIT: where it should have been all the time).
- james1071 11y ago
  Yes-I agree.
mike_hearn 11y ago
It's sad? The man called them terrorists. Why should they even give him the time of day, after an insult like that?
- icebraining 11y ago
  As it has been pointed out, the (Greek) word he used doesn't have the same connotations as "terrorist" in English. https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/3c3cj6/yanis_varoufakis_accuses_creditors_of_terrorism/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/3c3cj6/yanis_varouf...
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    Sad that people still fall for these blatant PR smear tricks.
return0 11y ago
Varoufakis did great damage to the country, as expected. This is typical 'martyr academic' behavior. My comment from 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9364609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9364609
- mslot 11y ago
  Did he? How? He inherited a bankrupt country which can't do anything without debt-relief. He knew only two things worked in Greece’s favour: 1. 90% of the Greek debt is held by the eurogroup governments, they are in a position to make a deal 2. The stakes are higher for the other eurogroup countries than they are for Greece, he can say no to any deal that doesn’t give at least some breathing room. In that position, you should play hard, which is what he did. He is a rare case of a finance minister who did his job. Most finance ministers in the eurogroup who decide on the fate of the second biggest monetary union are not economists, and don’t seem to listen to the advice of economists, most of whom are calling for an end to austerity. Since the current pro-austerity administration took office, the Netherlands has performed worse than its mostly ungoverned neighbour Belgium in almost every respect, including debt-to-GDP growth. Mind you that the Netherlands is one of the richest countries in the world with financial assets worth several times its debts, and those assets have much higher returns than what they pay in interest on their loans. Yet even in this most luxurious of positions, the Dutch finance minister who is also the eurogroup president, swears by austerity for his country and for others, and the Greeks must suffer through it.
crdoconnor 11y ago
>To me, it seems he's a true hero of his nation, putting the needs of his people before the needs of the creditors. Guess why they hate him so much.
fla 11y ago
Yes it's sad. IMO, Europe representatives are just bureacrats who think asking for a minister's head is a productive move. Europe's biggest problem right now is direct democracy. What happend when when people wish to change the rules? It seems Europe had totally forgotten about that. We have a similar-ish situation in Switzerland: we voted for a revision of the immigration system, and Europe doesn't know how to handle that because it's in contradiction with 'the rules'. The situation is completely stalled because cannot-change-the-rules so there can't be any middle ground. HCF please.

by wsc981 11y ago

bbv-if 11y ago

Indeed, a true hero who wrecked his country and resigned.

gonvaled 11y ago
You can see it like that. You can also see it like this: he gave voice to the people, and accepted to step aside when pressured by the powers-that-be, instead of stubbornly clinching to his post. He is no politician. We need more of those.
- cxromos 11y ago
  you can't borrow, get 100 EU billions in haircuts few years ago, have monthly salaries in the administration and bureaucracy between 1.5-1.7 monthly, get 60 EU billions 5 years ago and not expect to default with 90 EU billions only in salaries in public sector. And those were only salaries expenses. Incompetent, malignant, and corrupt bureaucracy is Greek's heritage. No one will pay for that. When they borrow money in the eurozone they borrow money from middle class people who put that money into the bank. Then they call elections, and now are in recession, even though months before the elections they were on the upward line. They were already in the state that could service their own budget without borrowing and on top of that pay 3.4% interest to the creditors. The issue was that they didn't wanted to pay that 3.4%. All of this we see today is that 3.4%. And of course an insane idea that communism will rule the EU. Once more. He is an asshole, a person who calls the ordinary people who borrowed money to the Greeks for years terrorists and nazists. Good riddance.
  - wsc981 11y ago
    I can't fault the Greek government for lending what the creditors (banks from Germany and France) were willing to provide. I think the creditors made a huge mistake in their greed and thinking it was a sound investment since the credit would be backed by strong countries in the Eurozone anyway. And I also think ik was a huge mistake to include Greece in the Eurozone, since at the time the problems with the Greek economy were already well known. Now the Greeks have voted no, we finally have reached the moment we can right these wrongs. Greece should leave the Eurozone so they can achieve a better trade position. The Greek debts should be wroten off as losses to the creditors so the Greek economy can recover. And perhaps other weak countries in the Eurozone should follow suit, eventually. It's morally wrong to keep the Greek people in endless debts that they'll never be able to repay anyways.
- cxromos 11y ago
  And you can't win elections by promising not to pay back your debts and accuse everyone else of trying to destroy the democracy. New government does not mean you can erase your debt. And the fact that you won the elections by telling fairytales does not mean that someone else will pay for the fairytale. That is borderline insanity. Democracy is responsibility of the successive government for the deeds of the previous one. May that be debt or a warcrime.
  - alextgordon 11y ago
    Sovereign debt absolutely can be defaulted on, just like any other kind of debt. The risk of default is priced into it. Greece is in a situation where there is no possible way that it can ever pay back its debts. Saying that does not make you "borderline insane". Quite the opposite.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      > Greece is in a situation where there is no possible way that it can ever pay back its debts. Other countries have managed to claw themselves out of bigger holes than this. It does take a much more hardline stance with respect to payment of taxes and reduction of the size of the state apparatus, what Greece has done is in many ways a simple strategy of postponement of action until the consequences were extremely bad for all of Greece, in particular the weaker parties. I don't blame the Greeks for their 'no' vote, but it would have been a lot better if they had had their 'French revolution' a decade earlier. Right now there is no good or easy way out of the mess any more and the Greek economy is about to collapse. This is not a situation where there are winners, only losers and the biggest losers are the people partying in the Greek squares today. It will take a while before that reality sets in though.
      - vidarh 11y ago
        > Other countries have managed to claw themselves out of bigger holes than this. Do you have examples of any that have done so without extensive debt relief? I can't think of any. IMF's most optimistic numbers (which rests on wildly unrealistic assumptions) indicates it would take decades, and they've made it very clear that the debt isn't sustainable at all. When their past attempts at forecasting the Greek situation has consistently understated the problems, that ought to be pretty sobering. > Right now there is no good or easy way out of the mess any more Maybe not "good or easy", but substantially less damaging than what's been put on the table: Drastic debt cuts coupled with short term financing, coupled with reforms that aren't tied at reducing Greek government spending, or at least replaces any spending cuts with investment elsewhere (as the spending cuts have been a driver for the drastic contraction of GDP).
- return0 11y ago
  Do the "click here for free ipad" ads give voice to the people too? Because that's what he did by giving false hopes. And then you congratulate him for not taking any responsibility for what will follow. Let me remind you that his 5 months as a minister were spent doing nothing , absolutely nothing ( yeah, he hired back 50 cleaning ladies for his ministry, that takes us into negative territory.)
lectrick 11y ago
Assumes the will of a single man would have been enough to rescue an entire economy based on what looks to outsiders like an ingrained culture of laziness
crdoconnor 11y ago
So what should he have done? What's your brilliant plan?

allendoerfer 11y ago

> To me, it seems he's a true hero of his nation, putting the needs of his people before the needs of the creditors. If you are responsible for the finances of a whole state you have to find agreement with the other 18 elected leaders that try to represent their people as well, preferably before you are unable to pay for your countries loans and it collapses. The Euro group was already moving in his direction but they have to justify their actions in front of their own people. I am all for some fresh wind but if you go into politics you have to be able to make compromises. You cannot just want something thinking that you are the only intelligent person in the room and step back if you do not get it, especially when the future of your country is at stake.

vruiz 11y ago
> you have to find agreement with the other 18 elected leaders that try to represent their people as well That right there might be the root of all EU problems.
- coob 11y ago
  Eurozone problems, perhaps. I do not understand how you can attempt fiscal union without true political union.
  - vidarh 11y ago
    Almost everything in the EU can be explained by considering the interplay between a core of EU politicians that wants the EU to be a "United States of Europe", and those who want a looser association, and that the former group in general will grasp at whatever integration they can manage to get past parliaments and electorates at the moment, and hope it will hang together long enough to take the next step and/or that a crisis can be leverages to get support for the next step.
crdoconnor 11y ago
>The Euro group was already moving in his direction That's a huge load of bullshit. They never showed any intention of budging from their position.

Bootvis 11y ago

He called the creditors 'terrorists' though. He didn't have to do that and I really can't blame the creditors for wanting someone else at the table.

MaysonL 11y ago
Actually, a more accurate translation would be "fear-mongers"
- Bootvis 11y ago
  Oh, I didn't know that. Still not very flattering and not the first incident. In my opinion the problem is that Varoufakis is more skilled at game theory than at diplomacy.
  - vidarh 11y ago
    Have you perhaps considered that his background in game theory might make it reasonable to consider whether he's taken on a role on purpose? It strikes me as odd that people are so quick to pile on criticism of his behaviour without asking why, given his background. Perhaps it really is just personality flaws or too much enthusiasm. Or perhaps it's part of an intentional strategy (if so, whether or not it's been a good strategy we'll first find out when we see the end-result).
    - return0 11y ago
      Because people are not lab animals maybe?
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      I think i has in the past referred to himself as an anti-game theorist. As in, most of this work revolves around showing where game theory fails (often in spectacular ways).
- return0 11y ago
  He said that to a spanish paper: http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2015/07/04/5596f1b3ca47412d048b459e.html http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2015/07/04/5596f1b3ca47412d04... "Lo que están haciendo con Grecia tiene un nombre: terrorismo." I dont speak spanish, and i guess the interview was in english, but reading the ensuing dialog its clear he said terrorism.

higherpurpose 11y ago

> Our politicians on the other hand seem to do anything the EU tells them What the US tells them too, probably: https://blog.cyberwar.nl/2015/07/dutch-intelligence-bill-proposes-non-specific-bulk-interception-powers-for-any-form-of-telecom-or-data-transfer-incl-domestic/ https://blog.cyberwar.nl/2015/07/dutch-intelligence-bill-pro...

vidarh 11y ago

Personally I think that he was expecting this. That he took the "bad cop" role on purpose, and that it's now time for the "good cop" to come in and appear more reasonable while pointing to the referendum with a "what can I do?" shrug while asking for more (e.g. after the IMF report, debt relief is now back on the table; EDIT: where it should have been all the time).

james1071 11y ago
Yes-I agree.

mike_hearn 11y ago

It's sad? The man called them terrorists. Why should they even give him the time of day, after an insult like that?

icebraining 11y ago
As it has been pointed out, the (Greek) word he used doesn't have the same connotations as "terrorist" in English. https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/3c3cj6/yanis_varoufakis_accuses_creditors_of_terrorism/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/3c3cj6/yanis_varouf...
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  Sad that people still fall for these blatant PR smear tricks.

return0 11y ago

Varoufakis did great damage to the country, as expected. This is typical 'martyr academic' behavior. My comment from 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9364609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9364609

mslot 11y ago
Did he? How? He inherited a bankrupt country which can't do anything without debt-relief. He knew only two things worked in Greece’s favour: 1. 90% of the Greek debt is held by the eurogroup governments, they are in a position to make a deal 2. The stakes are higher for the other eurogroup countries than they are for Greece, he can say no to any deal that doesn’t give at least some breathing room. In that position, you should play hard, which is what he did. He is a rare case of a finance minister who did his job. Most finance ministers in the eurogroup who decide on the fate of the second biggest monetary union are not economists, and don’t seem to listen to the advice of economists, most of whom are calling for an end to austerity. Since the current pro-austerity administration took office, the Netherlands has performed worse than its mostly ungoverned neighbour Belgium in almost every respect, including debt-to-GDP growth. Mind you that the Netherlands is one of the richest countries in the world with financial assets worth several times its debts, and those assets have much higher returns than what they pay in interest on their loans. Yet even in this most luxurious of positions, the Dutch finance minister who is also the eurogroup president, swears by austerity for his country and for others, and the Greeks must suffer through it.

crdoconnor 11y ago

>To me, it seems he's a true hero of his nation, putting the needs of his people before the needs of the creditors. Guess why they hate him so much.

fla 11y ago

Yes it's sad. IMO, Europe representatives are just bureacrats who think asking for a minister's head is a productive move. Europe's biggest problem right now is direct democracy. What happend when when people wish to change the rules? It seems Europe had totally forgotten about that. We have a similar-ish situation in Switzerland: we voted for a revision of the immigration system, and Europe doesn't know how to handle that because it's in contradiction with 'the rules'. The situation is completely stalled because cannot-change-the-rules so there can't be any middle ground. HCF please.