4 ms·

The idea that any of those leaders would have been intimidated by or felt insecure around Varoufakis is laughable. He was a mildly amusing technocrat given a s

by evgen 11y ago

The idea that any of those leaders would have been intimidated by or felt insecure around Varoufakis is laughable. He was a mildly amusing technocrat given a specific mission by his delusional government, a mission he failed miserably at while mostly working to maintain his own brand. National leaders keep trained monkeys of their own in the room to explain or even negotiate the details, the key issues are in making sure that major points are accepted by both sides. I would not say that is is leaving "while on top", he is just leaving. This is no longer a negotiation regarding greek debt, it is a determination of the process for greek exit from the Euro.

venomsnake 11y ago
>This is no longer a negotiation regarding greek debt, it is a determination of the process for greek exit from the Euro. Which was the only possible solution for Greece (outside of 50% debt relief which would have been optimal, but politically impossible due to conservative culture). So in a way he delivered.
- evgen 11y ago
  Given that Syriza came to power claiming the could both eliminate austerity conditions and keep Greece in the Euro, I have a hard time believing that this is delivering in any way, shape, or form. Greece is now going to have an unpleasant austerity imposed on it by collapse of their banking system and exit from the Euro. In the long-run this is possibly better, but it is going to be very unpleasant for quite a while.
  - venomsnake 11y ago
    Having permanent depression is always unpleasant. Anyway Euro is not a big deal. Membership in EU is. They have access to Schengen, EU markets and borders.
toyg 11y ago
You might think that, but it's a fact that he managed to move the debate from "more austerity to repay all" to "the unsustainable debt has to be renounced". Both the IMF and the public agreed with him. The fact that he didn't need "trained monkeys", unlike his counterparts, is exactly why they clearly felt threatened and spent six months name-calling him. > It is a determination of the process for greek exit from the Euro. It might well be the determination of the process for Euro dismemberment. It's now clear that a country not useful to the current "enlarged deutschmark" will be just thrown to the wolves, so the clock is ticking for Italy and Spain.
- danem 11y ago
  > Both the IMF and the public agreed with him. From my reading of the IMF report abstract, it seems that they believe the debt is unsustainable given that Greece didn't follow the plan laid out in the 2012 framework. Hardly a change of message, I'd say. Relevant passage: > By late summer 2014, with interest rates having declined further, it appeared that no further debt relief would have been needed under the November 2012 framework, if the program were to have been implemented as agreed. But significant changes in policies since then—not least, lower primary surpluses and a weak reform effort that will weigh on growth and privatization—are leading to substantial new financing needs. http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=43044.0 http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=43044.0
  - peterfirefly 11y ago
    > not least, lower primary surpluses and a weak reform effort that will weigh on growth and privatization Here's a wonderful anecdote about their glacial and incompetent privatization: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/07/03/the-airbus-planes-an-excellent-example-of-how-greece-got-into-this-mess/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/07/03/the-airbu... Note the marvelous bit about the hundreds of clients the non-selling of 4 Airbus planes provided jobs for.
  - toyg 11y ago
    They stopped following austerity because things were getting intolerable for the average person. By the time the medicine could have 'worked', the patient would have been long dead. So the change in policy was inevitable, as it was debt relief. If Merkel and Schauble had agreed to debt relief 6 months ago, accepting that it was a price worth paying for the stability and long term wealth of the eurozone, things today would be looking rosy. Unfortunately, they could not get themselves to reveal to their electorate that the 2012 bailout was for European banks and arms dealers rather than the Greek people (which is now long overdue), and here we are.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- peterfirefly 11y ago
  I think it is counter productive to flag good and reasonable comments. What is wrong or subjective in "delusional government", "failed", "working to maintain his own brand"? Is it the "trained monkeys" you object to? Edit: and I think you are just trying to use appeals to decorum to suppress dissent. Note: "childish", "defamatory", "bad-faith", "stooping", "vacuous", "insults". Hoisted by your own petard? Projection?
  - corin_ 11y ago
    What is wrong or subjective? Well we still don't actually know what's going to happen. Maybe all their debts will be forgiven tomorrow. Seems unlikely, but right now we don't know what's going to happen we just have a range of good and bad guesses. Until we know for sure they have failed we can't call them delusional; indeed lots of people think they are right to fight against austerity, not delusional. And working to maintain his own brand... even if their isn't an argument to be made that getting people to like him is beneficial for his party and his job objectives (which surely there is), how many politicians do you know who don't attempt to maintain their own brand? It's the game they're in. All in all... we get it, you dislike the Greek government, disagree with them entirely, and are confident you know what is going to happen. Your views are subjective.
    - claudius 11y ago
      > Maybe all their debts will be forgiven tomorrow. Greece is not the only democracy in Europe and Merkel likes her job too much for that to happen. Sure, if the US/IMF think that the debt should be forgiven, they’re welcome to purchase it and hand it over to Greece, but that’s even more unlikely.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 11y ago

by evgen 11y ago

venomsnake 11y ago

>This is no longer a negotiation regarding greek debt, it is a determination of the process for greek exit from the Euro. Which was the only possible solution for Greece (outside of 50% debt relief which would have been optimal, but politically impossible due to conservative culture). So in a way he delivered.

evgen 11y ago
Given that Syriza came to power claiming the could both eliminate austerity conditions and keep Greece in the Euro, I have a hard time believing that this is delivering in any way, shape, or form. Greece is now going to have an unpleasant austerity imposed on it by collapse of their banking system and exit from the Euro. In the long-run this is possibly better, but it is going to be very unpleasant for quite a while.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  Having permanent depression is always unpleasant. Anyway Euro is not a big deal. Membership in EU is. They have access to Schengen, EU markets and borders.

toyg 11y ago

You might think that, but it's a fact that he managed to move the debate from "more austerity to repay all" to "the unsustainable debt has to be renounced". Both the IMF and the public agreed with him. The fact that he didn't need "trained monkeys", unlike his counterparts, is exactly why they clearly felt threatened and spent six months name-calling him. > It is a determination of the process for greek exit from the Euro. It might well be the determination of the process for Euro dismemberment. It's now clear that a country not useful to the current "enlarged deutschmark" will be just thrown to the wolves, so the clock is ticking for Italy and Spain.

danem 11y ago
> Both the IMF and the public agreed with him. From my reading of the IMF report abstract, it seems that they believe the debt is unsustainable given that Greece didn't follow the plan laid out in the 2012 framework. Hardly a change of message, I'd say. Relevant passage: > By late summer 2014, with interest rates having declined further, it appeared that no further debt relief would have been needed under the November 2012 framework, if the program were to have been implemented as agreed. But significant changes in policies since then—not least, lower primary surpluses and a weak reform effort that will weigh on growth and privatization—are leading to substantial new financing needs. http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=43044.0 http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=43044.0
- peterfirefly 11y ago
  > not least, lower primary surpluses and a weak reform effort that will weigh on growth and privatization Here's a wonderful anecdote about their glacial and incompetent privatization: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/07/03/the-airbus-planes-an-excellent-example-of-how-greece-got-into-this-mess/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/07/03/the-airbu... Note the marvelous bit about the hundreds of clients the non-selling of 4 Airbus planes provided jobs for.
- toyg 11y ago
  They stopped following austerity because things were getting intolerable for the average person. By the time the medicine could have 'worked', the patient would have been long dead. So the change in policy was inevitable, as it was debt relief. If Merkel and Schauble had agreed to debt relief 6 months ago, accepting that it was a price worth paying for the stability and long term wealth of the eurozone, things today would be looking rosy. Unfortunately, they could not get themselves to reveal to their electorate that the 2012 bailout was for European banks and arms dealers rather than the Greek people (which is now long overdue), and here we are.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

peterfirefly 11y ago
I think it is counter productive to flag good and reasonable comments. What is wrong or subjective in "delusional government", "failed", "working to maintain his own brand"? Is it the "trained monkeys" you object to? Edit: and I think you are just trying to use appeals to decorum to suppress dissent. Note: "childish", "defamatory", "bad-faith", "stooping", "vacuous", "insults". Hoisted by your own petard? Projection?
- corin_ 11y ago
  What is wrong or subjective? Well we still don't actually know what's going to happen. Maybe all their debts will be forgiven tomorrow. Seems unlikely, but right now we don't know what's going to happen we just have a range of good and bad guesses. Until we know for sure they have failed we can't call them delusional; indeed lots of people think they are right to fight against austerity, not delusional. And working to maintain his own brand... even if their isn't an argument to be made that getting people to like him is beneficial for his party and his job objectives (which surely there is), how many politicians do you know who don't attempt to maintain their own brand? It's the game they're in. All in all... we get it, you dislike the Greek government, disagree with them entirely, and are confident you know what is going to happen. Your views are subjective.
  - claudius 11y ago
    > Maybe all their debts will be forgiven tomorrow. Greece is not the only democracy in Europe and Merkel likes her job too much for that to happen. Sure, if the US/IMF think that the debt should be forgiven, they’re welcome to purchase it and hand it over to Greece, but that’s even more unlikely.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 11y ago