5 ms·

Oh but the current generation of Germans has a moral responsibility to help the current generation of Greeks because Germany got debt forgiveness 60 years ago ?

by Atropos 11y ago

Oh but the current generation of Germans has a moral responsibility to help the current generation of Greeks because Germany got debt forgiveness 60 years ago ???

Chinjut 11y ago
The idea isn't that Germans have incurred a special moral responsibility (which they otherwise would not have) because Germany received debt forgiveness 60 years ago. Rather, the idea is that the debt forgiveness Germany received 60 years ago ended up working out quite well, most of us would agree. Thus, we would do well to learn from this history, instead of dogmatically keeping debt forgiveness off the table.
- Svip 11y ago
  Perhaps. But Germany back then, before the war and now, has/had a large industry and infrastructure to work with (albeit a large part of it destroyed in the war). Greece doesn't have that. I don't disagree we should consider pumping up the Greek economy, but I do not believe the results will be like the German one.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    Every debt has a lender and a borrower and the borrower does not force the lender to lend. At this point it is pretty clear that Greece can never pay off the debt which is just another way of saying that they should never have been lent the money in the first place. Write off the debt and vow to never lend the Greek state any money ever again. Both sides are at fault here.
  - phillmv 11y ago
    No one's saying Greece will become Germany. Just that it will be doing better than if don't forgive its debt.
- junto 11y ago
  Although I agree with you, the situations are a bit different. In the case of post WWII it was widely recognised that Germany's debt and war reparations were a major cause of WWII and helped with the rise of the National Socialist Party in Germany. Greece doesn't have a modern history of military aggression. Germany did. What the Allies put in place was in their own interests. The Allies didn't want to make that mistake twice (one could argue 3rd time). Hence they made sure that Germany [a] had a political system that was extremely balanced and stable (ironically much more than their own). And [b] (most importantly of all), they made sure that they Germans had hope. Hope to be able to dig themselves out of what must have appeared to be almost a impossible mess at the beginning. Hope is like a virus. It starts small and becomes a self fulfilling cycle upwards (the reverse is also true). That is what the Greece requires now. It needs to restructure its debt in order to take advantage of the quantitative easing policy of the ECB and low interest rates. It also needs time to put its house in this order and it needs stability (politically and economically) to build itself back up. The EU powers that be hates referendums. The people always vote that opposite to what they want. Welcome to democracy.
  - justincormack 11y ago
    Greece did though have a military coup in the 1960s[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%9374 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E...
    - junto 11y ago
      They did, but domination of Europe and beyond wasn't really really in their scope.
  - xyzzy123 11y ago
    Wait, are you saying that if Greece had a national socialist party, then it would be rational to extend debt relief?
- usrusr 11y ago
  What I see missing in those analogies between historic debt forgiveness events and a possible approach to the current Greek situation is that those historic cases all happened in the context of a complete reboot of the debter state right down to the constitution. Ironically, the one that happened within a democratic framework is the kind of reboot you absolutely don't want to see repeated anywhere.
- rustynails 11y ago
  I apologise if this sounds bad, because it is. Maybe there's some truth to the "Germany should show compassion like the allies did". To quote, "he Allies also confiscated large amounts of German intellectual property (patents and copyrights, but also trademarks).[27] Beginning immediately after the German surrender and continuing for the next two years the US pursued a vigorous program to harvest all technological and scientific know-how as well as all patents in Germany" Reference here, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_plans_for_German_industry_after_World_War_II https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_plans_for_German_indu... If you do the research, the U.S. Leveraged a similar deal over the UK to obtain all patents royalty free as an incentive to enter WWII. There may be some leverage that can be applied. These corporate and IP raids netted the U.S. hundreds of trillions of dollars. I was first devastated when I first found this out. It reminded me that the line between the "goodies" and "baddies" was not so clear.
  - pluma 11y ago
    The US not only confiscated large amounts of intellectual property, they also extracted a significant number of highly qualified academics (e.g. Operation Paperclip). These people weren't all innocent victims of the nazi regime either -- not that we will ever find out as nearly all of them were pardoned in return for working for the US government. Germans are somewhat aware that the Soviet Union practically strip mined the industry in East Germany after the war but what the other Allies (and the US in particular) did is less widely known. Especially the fact that the original (pre-Marshall) plan was to convert Germany to a pre-industrial level (which would have been a death sentence for a large part of the population which would have been unable to sustain itself on agriculture alone) to avoid a repeat of the mobilization that enabled the Blitz. Also, there was quite a bit of reparations going on after WW2. I'd wager that every German adult has heard stories from their grandparents about stealing supplies off those trains -- something that became so frequent the archbishop of Cologne (Cardinal Frings) absolved the practice and people began calling it "fringsen". War means everybody loses -- even the "winners". There are no good guys, just various degrees of badness.
golergka 11y ago
> moral responsibility to help No. No one is saying that. People are saying that Germans should help Greece because it's a rational thing to do. No one, except complete idiots, is saying that they have moral obligation to do it. Here's the quote from OP: > Nonsense! This had nothing to do with moral clarity; it was a rational political and economic decision
- antientropic 11y ago
  Actually, plenty of people are saying that, including the Syriza government who unwisely kept bringing up World War II reparations over the last few months.
  - golergka 11y ago
    > except complete idiots I would be very surprised if a person who's so invested in a situation would act intelligently and rationally about it.

by Atropos 11y ago

Oh but the current generation of Germans has a moral responsibility to help the current generation of Greeks because Germany got debt forgiveness 60 years ago ???

Chinjut 11y ago

The idea isn't that Germans have incurred a special moral responsibility (which they otherwise would not have) because Germany received debt forgiveness 60 years ago. Rather, the idea is that the debt forgiveness Germany received 60 years ago ended up working out quite well, most of us would agree. Thus, we would do well to learn from this history, instead of dogmatically keeping debt forgiveness off the table.

Svip 11y ago
Perhaps. But Germany back then, before the war and now, has/had a large industry and infrastructure to work with (albeit a large part of it destroyed in the war). Greece doesn't have that. I don't disagree we should consider pumping up the Greek economy, but I do not believe the results will be like the German one.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Every debt has a lender and a borrower and the borrower does not force the lender to lend. At this point it is pretty clear that Greece can never pay off the debt which is just another way of saying that they should never have been lent the money in the first place. Write off the debt and vow to never lend the Greek state any money ever again. Both sides are at fault here.
- phillmv 11y ago
  No one's saying Greece will become Germany. Just that it will be doing better than if don't forgive its debt.
junto 11y ago
Although I agree with you, the situations are a bit different. In the case of post WWII it was widely recognised that Germany's debt and war reparations were a major cause of WWII and helped with the rise of the National Socialist Party in Germany. Greece doesn't have a modern history of military aggression. Germany did. What the Allies put in place was in their own interests. The Allies didn't want to make that mistake twice (one could argue 3rd time). Hence they made sure that Germany [a] had a political system that was extremely balanced and stable (ironically much more than their own). And [b] (most importantly of all), they made sure that they Germans had hope. Hope to be able to dig themselves out of what must have appeared to be almost a impossible mess at the beginning. Hope is like a virus. It starts small and becomes a self fulfilling cycle upwards (the reverse is also true). That is what the Greece requires now. It needs to restructure its debt in order to take advantage of the quantitative easing policy of the ECB and low interest rates. It also needs time to put its house in this order and it needs stability (politically and economically) to build itself back up. The EU powers that be hates referendums. The people always vote that opposite to what they want. Welcome to democracy.
- justincormack 11y ago
  Greece did though have a military coup in the 1960s[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%9374 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E...
  - junto 11y ago
    They did, but domination of Europe and beyond wasn't really really in their scope.
- xyzzy123 11y ago
  Wait, are you saying that if Greece had a national socialist party, then it would be rational to extend debt relief?
usrusr 11y ago
What I see missing in those analogies between historic debt forgiveness events and a possible approach to the current Greek situation is that those historic cases all happened in the context of a complete reboot of the debter state right down to the constitution. Ironically, the one that happened within a democratic framework is the kind of reboot you absolutely don't want to see repeated anywhere.
rustynails 11y ago
I apologise if this sounds bad, because it is. Maybe there's some truth to the "Germany should show compassion like the allies did". To quote, "he Allies also confiscated large amounts of German intellectual property (patents and copyrights, but also trademarks).[27] Beginning immediately after the German surrender and continuing for the next two years the US pursued a vigorous program to harvest all technological and scientific know-how as well as all patents in Germany" Reference here, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_plans_for_German_industry_after_World_War_II https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_plans_for_German_indu... If you do the research, the U.S. Leveraged a similar deal over the UK to obtain all patents royalty free as an incentive to enter WWII. There may be some leverage that can be applied. These corporate and IP raids netted the U.S. hundreds of trillions of dollars. I was first devastated when I first found this out. It reminded me that the line between the "goodies" and "baddies" was not so clear.
- pluma 11y ago
  The US not only confiscated large amounts of intellectual property, they also extracted a significant number of highly qualified academics (e.g. Operation Paperclip). These people weren't all innocent victims of the nazi regime either -- not that we will ever find out as nearly all of them were pardoned in return for working for the US government. Germans are somewhat aware that the Soviet Union practically strip mined the industry in East Germany after the war but what the other Allies (and the US in particular) did is less widely known. Especially the fact that the original (pre-Marshall) plan was to convert Germany to a pre-industrial level (which would have been a death sentence for a large part of the population which would have been unable to sustain itself on agriculture alone) to avoid a repeat of the mobilization that enabled the Blitz. Also, there was quite a bit of reparations going on after WW2. I'd wager that every German adult has heard stories from their grandparents about stealing supplies off those trains -- something that became so frequent the archbishop of Cologne (Cardinal Frings) absolved the practice and people began calling it "fringsen". War means everybody loses -- even the "winners". There are no good guys, just various degrees of badness.

golergka 11y ago

> moral responsibility to help No. No one is saying that. People are saying that Germans should help Greece because it's a rational thing to do. No one, except complete idiots, is saying that they have moral obligation to do it. Here's the quote from OP: > Nonsense! This had nothing to do with moral clarity; it was a rational political and economic decision

antientropic 11y ago
Actually, plenty of people are saying that, including the Syriza government who unwisely kept bringing up World War II reparations over the last few months.
- golergka 11y ago
  > except complete idiots I would be very surprised if a person who's so invested in a situation would act intelligently and rationally about it.