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South Korea? Well I'm not surprised. Beneath the veil of democracy is a nanny state, forcing kids to install surveillance tool on their mobile phones, forcing b

South Korea? Well I'm not surprised. Beneath the veil of democracy is a nanny state, forcing kids to install surveillance tool on their mobile phones, forcing bank and military to use IE and wonderfully secure ActiveX (required to do just about anything private and sensitive in Korea), requiring social insurance number to sign up for any website, use your real name so they can take you away if you write a blog post in Korean about smoking marijuana in Amsterdam, insanely bizarre Korean defamation law, polarized view of 'right' and 'left', with left being persecuted and painted in the same light as North Koreans, oppression of laborers, workers working for family owned conglomerates, indecency law (make Korean porno in Canada and get arrested once in Korea), hiding Gwangju massacre (officially a north korea inspired rebellion), silence and censorship of poor treatment of foreign workers (especially poorer Asian countries), east & west regionalism that creates discriminating policies based on lineage, the shit list far too long to go on. It's no North Korea or Saudi Arabia, but there is active surveillance which seems to be readily tolerated along with nepotism and corruption, because Confucius says you should do what someone with an earlier birth date or higher social status. To go against this machine is to give up the government's version of Korean identity, a constant victim of passed aggressions of neighboring countries which happened because Korea has never been blessed with a great government or kings that always put the country in such predicaments.

meric 11y ago
Confucius says you should do what someone with an earlier birth date or higher social status That's categorically false. In one example in an old confucian book I read - if you are the ruler of the country, and your parents committed a murder, you should first send an arrest order against your parents - even if they protest otherwise, and then abdicate and help your parents escape the law. This example directly contradicts your generalised assertion[1]. In confucianism - you must try to fulfil your roles at all times. Yes you must respect your elders, but in no way you should obey their commands without considering your own position - and even if you wish to, do not obey them blindly to the point of betraying the responsibilities of your other roles. Don't murder your brother just because your parents told you to do so. The "in confucianism you must obey your elders at all times" is a convenient myth perpetrated by various governments and parents throughout history. [1] According to confucianism, the parent always has higher social status than the child, and, the parent could also be a visiting ruler of a much larger country.
- contingencies 11y ago
  Your argument may be true but it's semantics. The poster's point was that Confucianism has a hierarchical/obedience type of effect on society, promoting a mindset that fosters an acceptance of totalitarian rule. That's hard to argue against. The major Confucian-derived modern states are China, Japan, North Korea, South Korea, arguably Singapore, Taiwan and Vietnam. Personally, my visit to the headquarters of one of the major Korean major mobile device manufacturer felt like a hideous preview of a dystopian future where the workers are forced in to utter obedience: entering through airport levels of security on a daily basis, living in numbered cells provided by the company, taking company-provided transport from their assigned residence to work. Even smoking was only permitted between certain regulated minutes, at certain areas. Everyone wore a personalized tracking device used in order to move about the campus. It was hard to describe as anything but oppressive, yet the conditions for those workers are reportedly sought after! (Edit in reply to below: Yes, I'm definitely in the Taoist camp.)
  - meric 11y ago
    Ah, what you see is one reason why the old Taoists railed against Confucianism so much in their philosophy - Confucianism tells people what they should or should not do, and in doing so, defeats itself in the kind of society it wants to promote. Confucianism claims the values of humanity are filial piety, kindness, benevolence, justice, loyalty. The following passage from Tao Te Ching challenges Confucianism directly. The great Tao fades away There is benevolence and justice Intelligence comes forth There is great deception The six relations are not harmonious There is filial piety and kind affection The country is in confused chaos There are loyal ministers Chapter 18, Tao Te Ching The Taoists say, by the time you're writing a rulebook about how to have humanity, all the values you're "treasuring" have already been lost. They complain as you do the lack of spontaneity in a society following confucian order. The Sinic civilisation has been following a cycle swinging the pendulum between Taoism "spontaneity" and Confucian "filial piety and benevolence" for the past two thousand years, so I wouldn't worry about it. The Tao is constant in non-action Yet there is nothing it does not do Chpater 37, Tao Te Ching

meric 11y ago

Confucius says you should do what someone with an earlier birth date or higher social status That's categorically false. In one example in an old confucian book I read - if you are the ruler of the country, and your parents committed a murder, you should first send an arrest order against your parents - even if they protest otherwise, and then abdicate and help your parents escape the law. This example directly contradicts your generalised assertion[1]. In confucianism - you must try to fulfil your roles at all times. Yes you must respect your elders, but in no way you should obey their commands without considering your own position - and even if you wish to, do not obey them blindly to the point of betraying the responsibilities of your other roles. Don't murder your brother just because your parents told you to do so. The "in confucianism you must obey your elders at all times" is a convenient myth perpetrated by various governments and parents throughout history. [1] According to confucianism, the parent always has higher social status than the child, and, the parent could also be a visiting ruler of a much larger country.

contingencies 11y ago
Your argument may be true but it's semantics. The poster's point was that Confucianism has a hierarchical/obedience type of effect on society, promoting a mindset that fosters an acceptance of totalitarian rule. That's hard to argue against. The major Confucian-derived modern states are China, Japan, North Korea, South Korea, arguably Singapore, Taiwan and Vietnam. Personally, my visit to the headquarters of one of the major Korean major mobile device manufacturer felt like a hideous preview of a dystopian future where the workers are forced in to utter obedience: entering through airport levels of security on a daily basis, living in numbered cells provided by the company, taking company-provided transport from their assigned residence to work. Even smoking was only permitted between certain regulated minutes, at certain areas. Everyone wore a personalized tracking device used in order to move about the campus. It was hard to describe as anything but oppressive, yet the conditions for those workers are reportedly sought after! (Edit in reply to below: Yes, I'm definitely in the Taoist camp.)
- meric 11y ago
  Ah, what you see is one reason why the old Taoists railed against Confucianism so much in their philosophy - Confucianism tells people what they should or should not do, and in doing so, defeats itself in the kind of society it wants to promote. Confucianism claims the values of humanity are filial piety, kindness, benevolence, justice, loyalty. The following passage from Tao Te Ching challenges Confucianism directly. The great Tao fades away There is benevolence and justice Intelligence comes forth There is great deception The six relations are not harmonious There is filial piety and kind affection The country is in confused chaos There are loyal ministers Chapter 18, Tao Te Ching The Taoists say, by the time you're writing a rulebook about how to have humanity, all the values you're "treasuring" have already been lost. They complain as you do the lack of spontaneity in a society following confucian order. The Sinic civilisation has been following a cycle swinging the pendulum between Taoism "spontaneity" and Confucian "filial piety and benevolence" for the past two thousand years, so I wouldn't worry about it. The Tao is constant in non-action Yet there is nothing it does not do Chpater 37, Tao Te Ching