4 ms·

I don't think refusing to take blame for the acts of others is sweeping anything under the rug.

by TTPrograms 11y ago

wpietri 11y ago
Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?
- TTPrograms 11y ago
  >Nobody is blaming you. >The Industry Is Fucked. That's my industry that's fucked. Not some random people on the internet, not some assholes in a convention. The statement is that the entire industry that I participate in, interact with and identify with is fucked.
  - daveloyall 11y ago
    Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?
    - TTPrograms 11y ago
      You really need to rephrase, because the way I read this statement is contradictory: Responsibility: the state of being the person who caused something to happen. Blame: to say or think that a person or thing is responsible for something bad that has happened. I think what you want to say is that we're asking people to stand against this sort of abuse, which seems to be happening to the extent possible. If you have suggestions for further steps to stop this sort of thing I think everyone is all ears, but the language you're using suggests random programmers and sysadmins should write long blog posts taking responsibility for negative acts of which they had no part and are against. That seems both pointless and somewhat insulting.
      - wpietri 11y ago
        One meaning of "responsible" is basically synonymous with blame, but that's not the only meaning, or even the primary one. If some random litters on my lawn and then walks away, they are to blame for the mess, but I am responsible for cleaning it up because it's my lawn. As another example, there are plenty of American citizens who argued fervently against the Iraq war, so they aren't to blame for it, but they are responsible for paying the debts that result from it. You and I are not necessarily to blame for the sexism and misogyny in the tech industry. But personally, I want the industry to be a welcoming place for everybody with technical skill, not just dude with thick skins. So I am taking my share of responsibility for my professional community. Would you like to help?
    - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
      Here's the thing: accountability/responsibility must match control. Can I stop all this? No. I'd like to, but I can't. Then there is no realistic way that I can take responsibility for it. Can I call out whatever I see? Sure can. That I'm responsible for.
      - wpietri 11y ago
        It is optimal when responsibility and control match, but they rarely do. E.g., parents have much more responsibility for children than they have control. Citizens and city governments have a responsibility to keep garbage off the streets, but they don't have perfect control of who can put garbage on the streets. If you are doing what you can to solve the problem, then you have already taken your share responsibility for the state of the industry.
- i_are_smart 11y ago
  But is it really my community? The 'tech industry' is very broad - a software engineer at Google, a computer engineer at IBM, a Sysadmin at AT&T, a computer scientist at Volvo - they're all considered members of the tech industry. Half of the industry has probably never attended a conference of any sort. 3/4 of the industry probably don't have personal blogs, or a GitHub. There's no bar association or union or anything. You don't even need a degree to get hired. Grouping, say, an embedded systems specialist and a PHP dev into the 'tech community' is like grouping a welder and an auto mechanic into the 'construction community'. There are similarities, sure, but very little influence between groups.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    It may not be your community, but it's definitely mine. Any community has subcommunities, just like any city has neighborhoods.

I don't think refusing to take blame for the acts of others is sweeping anything under the rug.

wpietri 11y ago

Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?

TTPrograms 11y ago
>Nobody is blaming you. >The Industry Is Fucked. That's my industry that's fucked. Not some random people on the internet, not some assholes in a convention. The statement is that the entire industry that I participate in, interact with and identify with is fucked.
- daveloyall 11y ago
  Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?
  - TTPrograms 11y ago
    You really need to rephrase, because the way I read this statement is contradictory: Responsibility: the state of being the person who caused something to happen. Blame: to say or think that a person or thing is responsible for something bad that has happened. I think what you want to say is that we're asking people to stand against this sort of abuse, which seems to be happening to the extent possible. If you have suggestions for further steps to stop this sort of thing I think everyone is all ears, but the language you're using suggests random programmers and sysadmins should write long blog posts taking responsibility for negative acts of which they had no part and are against. That seems both pointless and somewhat insulting.
    - wpietri 11y ago
      One meaning of "responsible" is basically synonymous with blame, but that's not the only meaning, or even the primary one. If some random litters on my lawn and then walks away, they are to blame for the mess, but I am responsible for cleaning it up because it's my lawn. As another example, there are plenty of American citizens who argued fervently against the Iraq war, so they aren't to blame for it, but they are responsible for paying the debts that result from it. You and I are not necessarily to blame for the sexism and misogyny in the tech industry. But personally, I want the industry to be a welcoming place for everybody with technical skill, not just dude with thick skins. So I am taking my share of responsibility for my professional community. Would you like to help?
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    Here's the thing: accountability/responsibility must match control. Can I stop all this? No. I'd like to, but I can't. Then there is no realistic way that I can take responsibility for it. Can I call out whatever I see? Sure can. That I'm responsible for.
    - wpietri 11y ago
      It is optimal when responsibility and control match, but they rarely do. E.g., parents have much more responsibility for children than they have control. Citizens and city governments have a responsibility to keep garbage off the streets, but they don't have perfect control of who can put garbage on the streets. If you are doing what you can to solve the problem, then you have already taken your share responsibility for the state of the industry.
i_are_smart 11y ago
But is it really my community? The 'tech industry' is very broad - a software engineer at Google, a computer engineer at IBM, a Sysadmin at AT&T, a computer scientist at Volvo - they're all considered members of the tech industry. Half of the industry has probably never attended a conference of any sort. 3/4 of the industry probably don't have personal blogs, or a GitHub. There's no bar association or union or anything. You don't even need a degree to get hired. Grouping, say, an embedded systems specialist and a PHP dev into the 'tech community' is like grouping a welder and an auto mechanic into the 'construction community'. There are similarities, sure, but very little influence between groups.
- wpietri 11y ago
  It may not be your community, but it's definitely mine. Any community has subcommunities, just like any city has neighborhoods.