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>That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem. Is that really the case, though? I

>That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem. Is that really the case, though? If there's a violent criminal in a town, does the town as a whole have problem? Is the whole town to blame for the acts of that individual? We should do what we can to stop this sort of abuse and make things better, but why do we have to spend so much time allocating blame to everyone in same field of work?

alaroldai 11y ago
If we're doing what we can to stop this sort of abuse, there's nothing to blame us for. If we're spending our time trying to sweep these issues under the rug, maybe there is.
- TTPrograms 11y ago
  I don't think refusing to take blame for the acts of others is sweeping anything under the rug.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?
    - TTPrograms 11y ago
      >Nobody is blaming you. >The Industry Is Fucked. That's my industry that's fucked. Not some random people on the internet, not some assholes in a convention. The statement is that the entire industry that I participate in, interact with and identify with is fucked.
      - daveloyall 11y ago
        Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?
        TTPrograms 11y ago
        You really need to rephrase, because the way I read this statement is contradictory: Responsibility: the state of being the person who caused something to happen. Blame: to say or think that a person or thing is responsible for something bad that has happened. I think what you want to say is that we're asking people to stand against this sort of abuse, which seems to be happening to the extent possible. If you have suggestions for further steps to stop this sort of thing I think everyone is all ears, but the language you're using suggests random programmers and sysadmins should write long blog posts taking responsibility for negative acts of which they had no part and are against. That seems both pointless and somewhat insulting.
        wpietri 11y ago
        One meaning of "responsible" is basically synonymous with blame, but that's not the only meaning, or even the primary one. If some random litters on my lawn and then walks away, they are to blame for the mess, but I am responsible for cleaning it up because it's my lawn. As another example, there are plenty of American citizens who argued fervently against the Iraq war, so they aren't to blame for it, but they are responsible for paying the debts that result from it. You and I are not necessarily to blame for the sexism and misogyny in the tech industry. But personally, I want the industry to be a welcoming place for everybody with technical skill, not just dude with thick skins. So I am taking my share of responsibility for my professional community. Would you like to help?
        AnimalMuppet 11y ago
        Here's the thing: accountability/responsibility must match control. Can I stop all this? No. I'd like to, but I can't. Then there is no realistic way that I can take responsibility for it. Can I call out whatever I see? Sure can. That I'm responsible for.
    - i_are_smart 11y ago
      But is it really my community? The 'tech industry' is very broad - a software engineer at Google, a computer engineer at IBM, a Sysadmin at AT&T, a computer scientist at Volvo - they're all considered members of the tech industry. Half of the industry has probably never attended a conference of any sort. 3/4 of the industry probably don't have personal blogs, or a GitHub. There's no bar association or union or anything. You don't even need a degree to get hired. Grouping, say, an embedded systems specialist and a PHP dev into the 'tech community' is like grouping a welder and an auto mechanic into the 'construction community'. There are similarities, sure, but very little influence between groups.
      - wpietri 11y ago
        It may not be your community, but it's definitely mine. Any community has subcommunities, just like any city has neighborhoods.
bato 11y ago
To continue along your analogy, that would be akin to the local population saying "there's need to involve police forces, it's only the one guy" "Just because there's a violent criminal in town doesn't mean we have to do anything about it, we're on the whole nice people" Instead of you know, assisting the police with their enquiries, teaching their kids it's not ok to slice open people, volunteering for search parties to find the victims, organising groups to walk kids to and from school, etc.
- TTPrograms 11y ago
  You kind of missed the analogy - we should do all of those things. The problem is that the acts of the violent criminal are being treated as the acts of the whole town.
  - livingparadox 11y ago
    Except, if we are going to make the analogy faithful to the real life scenario, the blame is not transferring the guilt of the criminal, but the separate crime of not doing anything about the criminal.
  - breadbox 11y ago
    No, they aren't. That may be what you're hearing, but I promise you that's not what the intended message is. When someone says "This town has a crime problem," they're not saying "The town itself is committing lots crimes" or even "This town contains nothing but criminals." What they are saying is that it doesn't matter how many good people there are in the town, it's still that town's responsibility to do something about it. The town can't just wait around for some other town to come and fix things for them. Or go on letting people get robbed and killed as long as it doesn't happen to anyone that "matters". Women say "This industry is fucked" because they want things to get better. Some people hear this and seem to think that if they personally didn't cause it, then it's not their job to fix things or even acknowledge the issue. But news flash, the only way things get better if the people who aren't causing the problem drive the change. Because the people who are causing the problem aren't going to. They're entirely happy with the shitty status quo.
wpietri 11y ago
If there are violent criminals in a town running rampant and unaccountable, then yes, the whole town has a problem. How could you think otherwise? Every municipal election I've seen or read about touches on crime and response to crime. > why do we have to spend so much time allocating blame to everyone in same field of work? We only spend a lot of time on this because every time somebody talks about their actual experience, eight zillion dudes pop up to shout, "#notallmen"! Or to demand that the problem be proven to them right this instant with detailed studies in top journals. Or to say, "why are we allocating blame" when nobody was in fact blamed. The tech industry has a problem. Do others? Possibly, but I don't care. Other people can worry about fixing their own industries. I'm going to worry about fixing mine. But it's not going to start getting better until people admit that there's a problem.

alaroldai 11y ago

If we're doing what we can to stop this sort of abuse, there's nothing to blame us for. If we're spending our time trying to sweep these issues under the rug, maybe there is.

TTPrograms 11y ago
I don't think refusing to take blame for the acts of others is sweeping anything under the rug.
- wpietri 11y ago
  Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?
  - TTPrograms 11y ago
    >Nobody is blaming you. >The Industry Is Fucked. That's my industry that's fucked. Not some random people on the internet, not some assholes in a convention. The statement is that the entire industry that I participate in, interact with and identify with is fucked.
    - daveloyall 11y ago
      Nobody is blaming you. They are asking you to take responsibility for your professional community. Will you?
      - TTPrograms 11y ago
        You really need to rephrase, because the way I read this statement is contradictory: Responsibility: the state of being the person who caused something to happen. Blame: to say or think that a person or thing is responsible for something bad that has happened. I think what you want to say is that we're asking people to stand against this sort of abuse, which seems to be happening to the extent possible. If you have suggestions for further steps to stop this sort of thing I think everyone is all ears, but the language you're using suggests random programmers and sysadmins should write long blog posts taking responsibility for negative acts of which they had no part and are against. That seems both pointless and somewhat insulting.
        wpietri 11y ago
        One meaning of "responsible" is basically synonymous with blame, but that's not the only meaning, or even the primary one. If some random litters on my lawn and then walks away, they are to blame for the mess, but I am responsible for cleaning it up because it's my lawn. As another example, there are plenty of American citizens who argued fervently against the Iraq war, so they aren't to blame for it, but they are responsible for paying the debts that result from it. You and I are not necessarily to blame for the sexism and misogyny in the tech industry. But personally, I want the industry to be a welcoming place for everybody with technical skill, not just dude with thick skins. So I am taking my share of responsibility for my professional community. Would you like to help?
      - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
        Here's the thing: accountability/responsibility must match control. Can I stop all this? No. I'd like to, but I can't. Then there is no realistic way that I can take responsibility for it. Can I call out whatever I see? Sure can. That I'm responsible for.
  - i_are_smart 11y ago
    But is it really my community? The 'tech industry' is very broad - a software engineer at Google, a computer engineer at IBM, a Sysadmin at AT&T, a computer scientist at Volvo - they're all considered members of the tech industry. Half of the industry has probably never attended a conference of any sort. 3/4 of the industry probably don't have personal blogs, or a GitHub. There's no bar association or union or anything. You don't even need a degree to get hired. Grouping, say, an embedded systems specialist and a PHP dev into the 'tech community' is like grouping a welder and an auto mechanic into the 'construction community'. There are similarities, sure, but very little influence between groups.
    - wpietri 11y ago
      It may not be your community, but it's definitely mine. Any community has subcommunities, just like any city has neighborhoods.

bato 11y ago

To continue along your analogy, that would be akin to the local population saying "there's need to involve police forces, it's only the one guy" "Just because there's a violent criminal in town doesn't mean we have to do anything about it, we're on the whole nice people" Instead of you know, assisting the police with their enquiries, teaching their kids it's not ok to slice open people, volunteering for search parties to find the victims, organising groups to walk kids to and from school, etc.

TTPrograms 11y ago
You kind of missed the analogy - we should do all of those things. The problem is that the acts of the violent criminal are being treated as the acts of the whole town.
- livingparadox 11y ago
  Except, if we are going to make the analogy faithful to the real life scenario, the blame is not transferring the guilt of the criminal, but the separate crime of not doing anything about the criminal.
- breadbox 11y ago
  No, they aren't. That may be what you're hearing, but I promise you that's not what the intended message is. When someone says "This town has a crime problem," they're not saying "The town itself is committing lots crimes" or even "This town contains nothing but criminals." What they are saying is that it doesn't matter how many good people there are in the town, it's still that town's responsibility to do something about it. The town can't just wait around for some other town to come and fix things for them. Or go on letting people get robbed and killed as long as it doesn't happen to anyone that "matters". Women say "This industry is fucked" because they want things to get better. Some people hear this and seem to think that if they personally didn't cause it, then it's not their job to fix things or even acknowledge the issue. But news flash, the only way things get better if the people who aren't causing the problem drive the change. Because the people who are causing the problem aren't going to. They're entirely happy with the shitty status quo.

wpietri 11y ago

If there are violent criminals in a town running rampant and unaccountable, then yes, the whole town has a problem. How could you think otherwise? Every municipal election I've seen or read about touches on crime and response to crime. > why do we have to spend so much time allocating blame to everyone in same field of work? We only spend a lot of time on this because every time somebody talks about their actual experience, eight zillion dudes pop up to shout, "#notallmen"! Or to demand that the problem be proven to them right this instant with detailed studies in top journals. Or to say, "why are we allocating blame" when nobody was in fact blamed. The tech industry has a problem. Do others? Possibly, but I don't care. Other people can worry about fixing their own industries. I'm going to worry about fixing mine. But it's not going to start getting better until people admit that there's a problem.