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You probably haven't heard it from them because complaining about such is so often labeled as "whining" and met with replies of "get a thicker skin." Even if yo

You probably haven't heard it from them because complaining about such is so often labeled as "whining" and met with replies of "get a thicker skin." Even if you, specifically, are a genuinely sympathetic ear, they've likely been burned too often to open up yet again.

Frondo 11y ago
This, this, a thousand times this. I have a few female programmer friends, and they only ever spoke about "well, you know, not too many women in the field" in careful, guarded tones. Until the Adria Richards thing happened, and I said something like "I don't really think either of them should have been fired, but I also think it's shitty how common those stupid sexual jokes are. I wish we could get past that stuff." And it was like they realized they could actually trust me, and started opening up to me about actual specific stuff--like a constant barrage of junior high sexual jokes, being talked over or ignored constantly (which never happens to me, a tall white dude), being hit on, being not quite hit on but followed around and lots of awkward eye contact and vaguely nice gestures that ends up adding to something as inappropriate as being hit on, and on and on and on. You know how they want to be treated? As people. But that's not really good enough--they want to be treated as people, and they want their coworkers to show maturity beyond what junior high school boys show. Is this all male programmers? Of course not, not at all. Enough that they have stories that could fill an afternoon? Oh yes.
- jazzyk 11y ago
  Please do not bring the Adria story again - she made a fuss because of an adolescent joke she overheard two rows behind her in a private conversation, which was NOT DIRECTED AT HER, and was not about females or sexual or any other interaction with females. All the same while making crass jokes herself in her social media accounts. As opposed to this case, where some sickos clearly send very troubling messages DIRECTLY ADDRESSED to Jessie. She should call the cops immediately.
  - Frondo 11y ago
    Aaaaand, our two divergent reactions to the Adria Richards story is probably why these friends of mine (the female programmers) probably felt like they could trust me with the stories of their experiences; e.g. I'm not going to tell them they're wrong, I'm not going to try and reinterpret their stories...I'm just going to listen.
    - Gigablah 11y ago
      What's there to be smug about? People will naturally confide in individuals who don't challenge their stories. It's basic empathy.
    - jazzyk 11y ago
      I was not re-interpreting the A.R. story - the facts were what they were. EVERY STORY about harassment (or threats or otherwise troubling behavior) should be reported/heard, but putting the two stories we are talking about in the same basket is not fair - Jessie's case is in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CATEGORY - it is personal and threatening - unlike the other one.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  being talked over or ignored constantly (which never happens to me, a tall white dude) I love how you extrapolate this as a general maxim. But ultimately, I find the parallels to junior high school to be thoroughly unconvincing. Yes, schools can be hellholes, but for completely different reasons than the one you imply, as has been written in detail by the likes of Ivan Illich, John Holt and John Taylor Gatto.
rodgerd 11y ago
> You probably haven't heard it from them because complaining about such is so often labeled as "whining" and met with replies of "get a thicker skin." One need only look here, where many of the responses could be retitled "Talking points from gamergate" or "redpill leakage".

Frondo 11y ago

This, this, a thousand times this. I have a few female programmer friends, and they only ever spoke about "well, you know, not too many women in the field" in careful, guarded tones. Until the Adria Richards thing happened, and I said something like "I don't really think either of them should have been fired, but I also think it's shitty how common those stupid sexual jokes are. I wish we could get past that stuff." And it was like they realized they could actually trust me, and started opening up to me about actual specific stuff--like a constant barrage of junior high sexual jokes, being talked over or ignored constantly (which never happens to me, a tall white dude), being hit on, being not quite hit on but followed around and lots of awkward eye contact and vaguely nice gestures that ends up adding to something as inappropriate as being hit on, and on and on and on. You know how they want to be treated? As people. But that's not really good enough--they want to be treated as people, and they want their coworkers to show maturity beyond what junior high school boys show. Is this all male programmers? Of course not, not at all. Enough that they have stories that could fill an afternoon? Oh yes.

jazzyk 11y ago
Please do not bring the Adria story again - she made a fuss because of an adolescent joke she overheard two rows behind her in a private conversation, which was NOT DIRECTED AT HER, and was not about females or sexual or any other interaction with females. All the same while making crass jokes herself in her social media accounts. As opposed to this case, where some sickos clearly send very troubling messages DIRECTLY ADDRESSED to Jessie. She should call the cops immediately.
- Frondo 11y ago
  Aaaaand, our two divergent reactions to the Adria Richards story is probably why these friends of mine (the female programmers) probably felt like they could trust me with the stories of their experiences; e.g. I'm not going to tell them they're wrong, I'm not going to try and reinterpret their stories...I'm just going to listen.
  - Gigablah 11y ago
    What's there to be smug about? People will naturally confide in individuals who don't challenge their stories. It's basic empathy.
  - jazzyk 11y ago
    I was not re-interpreting the A.R. story - the facts were what they were. EVERY STORY about harassment (or threats or otherwise troubling behavior) should be reported/heard, but putting the two stories we are talking about in the same basket is not fair - Jessie's case is in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CATEGORY - it is personal and threatening - unlike the other one.
vezzy-fnord 11y ago
being talked over or ignored constantly (which never happens to me, a tall white dude) I love how you extrapolate this as a general maxim. But ultimately, I find the parallels to junior high school to be thoroughly unconvincing. Yes, schools can be hellholes, but for completely different reasons than the one you imply, as has been written in detail by the likes of Ivan Illich, John Holt and John Taylor Gatto.

rodgerd 11y ago

> You probably haven't heard it from them because complaining about such is so often labeled as "whining" and met with replies of "get a thicker skin." One need only look here, where many of the responses could be retitled "Talking points from gamergate" or "redpill leakage".